Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Omaha Discussion of omaha cash and tournaments, online and live games of all stakes.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-16-2021, 02:46 PM   #1
DumbosTrunk
Pooh-Bah
 
DumbosTrunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 4,225
Wrap + nfd multiway

Hi all,

5/5/15 PLO5, BB reg pro min-raises, hero calls with AsQcTd6c3s in straddle, EP limper calls, BTN limper calls. EP is tight reg, BTN is overaggressive table spot. $1.4k eff.

Flop ($120): Ks-Js-4d. Checks through. Was hoping to c/r BTN who bets liberally if he has a piece. Does anyone lead here anyway?

Turn: 7c. Checks to EP limper who bets $100, BTN calls, pro tank calls, hero min-raises to $200 with still enough equity to GII here. I kinda wanted to make up for flop checking through. Merits to flatting turn, potting?

Thanks,
DT
DumbosTrunk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2021, 03:45 PM   #2
ladybruin
veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,291
Re: Wrap + nfd multiway

On the flop all of your straight outs and flush draw are to the nuts which is awesome. You even have a lot of back-door straight outs with the board 4d. Furthermore, the hand started at $1.4k effective which is essentially 100bb regular old poker. Just play the hand fast. And set it up so that on the river when you make the nuts you opponent feels compelled to call since the pot will be bigger than the remaining effective stacks.

For example, 4 of you went to the $120 flop, if you bet $120 pot on the flop and only get one caller, then the total pot will now be $360 on the turn. If you bet $360 pot on the turn against that one opponent, then on the river the total pot will be $1080 and the effective stack left will only be $890. A lot of people will call off $890 lightly into a $1080 pot.

The only way you can pull this move off is to first bet pot on the flop. And if you get more than one flop caller, then it requires a lot smaller bet on the turn to set up the less than pot size bet left over for the river.

There you go for all the people calling me the lowest variance poster in this sub-forum. When you have all nut straight outs and nut flush out, you can smash the pot button liberally at 100bb poker.

Last edited by ladybruin; 05-16-2021 at 04:04 PM.
ladybruin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2021, 04:12 PM   #3
Z06Fanatic1
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 833
Re: Wrap + nfd multiway

How do we have enough equity to GII on turn against like JJ+straight draw or JJ+flush draw? Seems like at this point you just call and play a river well disguised.
Z06Fanatic1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2021, 04:39 PM   #4
ladybruin
veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,291
Re: Wrap + nfd multiway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z06Fanatic1 View Post
How do we have enough equity to GII on turn against like JJ+straight draw or JJ+flush draw? Seems like at this point you just call and play a river well disguised.
The JJ+ is a small favorite on the flop. And on the turn we now have less cards to come and the JJ+ increases it's small advantage, but it does not get to a 55% favorite. Therefore, the worse case scenario is us a dog on the flop of 48 - 52. And a dog on the turn of 46 - 54. And that is worse case against a set+. And it is worth pointing out, if that 4th J is dead in someone else's hand, then we are crushing JJ+. I mention this because in 5-card, there will be times we block sets, i.e. we have a board pair but our board pair isn't the main thing we are going for.

On this flop against 3 opponents we have so much equity it is an embarrassment of riches. Charge the PLO5 chasers. I wasn't kidding about my post where I said pot the flop.

Last edited by ladybruin; 05-16-2021 at 05:06 PM.
ladybruin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2021, 04:51 PM   #5
monikrazy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
monikrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 26,825
Re: Wrap + nfd multiway

Turn min-raise is a bit silly, in practice you will almost never take this line with a good set or 2p combo, so a strong player may be able to categorize the type of hand you have pretty easily - never a good thing.

It still has some upside, but if you are expecting multiple callers why stop at $100 - why not raise to $250 - 350? This is also better for your range then min-raise imo.
monikrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2021, 05:58 PM   #6
Your Mom
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: grinding out a mediocre living
Posts: 13,259
Re: Wrap + nfd multiway

Bet flop, either raise the turn for real or dont.
Your Mom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2021, 11:33 AM   #7
Darth Sagebrush
newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: exit 333
Posts: 46
Re: Wrap + nfd multiway

Curious about preflop. You obviously want to keep BTN in. And BB obviously knows this. But you really should be attacking these minraises widely, with people behind you. Not necessarily with this hand, but it's important to consider. Letting BB control the pot size multiway should not be a regular habit.

Is BTN spewy enough to cold-call someone raising pot over the BB's min? If he's not, could you do often enough train him to get that way?
Darth Sagebrush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2021, 05:10 PM   #8
TomCollins
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TomCollins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The Blockchain
Posts: 43,019
Re: Wrap + nfd multiway

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
Hi all,

5/5/15 PLO5, BB reg pro min-raises, hero calls with AsQcTd6c3s in straddle, EP limper calls, BTN limper calls. EP is tight reg, BTN is overaggressive table spot. $1.4k eff.

Flop ($120): Ks-Js-4d. Checks through. Was hoping to c/r BTN who bets liberally if he has a piece. Does anyone lead here anyway?

Turn: 7c. Checks to EP limper who bets $100, BTN calls, pro tank calls, hero min-raises to $200 with still enough equity to GII here. I kinda wanted to make up for flop checking through. Merits to flatting turn, potting?

Thanks,
DT

What's your river plan after min-raising? Trying to get a free showdown does nothing. Trying to induce a jam? This line is just confusing, you'll end up with two calls for sure, and them checking to you on the river and likely folding when you hit and you bet. I'm happy to pot it here, if they decide to stack off so be it, and if they fold, that's also great.
TomCollins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2021, 06:55 PM   #9
ladybruin
veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,291
Re: Wrap + nfd multiway

Re-draws in 5-card PLO are where the insane amounts of money are be made.

Equities normally run close in 4-card and 5-card PLO. If you can freeroll players getting attached to the current nuts with no re-draw, then you can destroy players with an equity advantage that looks like Hold'em. And it isn't just the current nuts situations. This hand on the flop is all draws, but since the draws are too the nuts and with re-draws you crush players that don't know how to fold, which is most players. There are times a non-flush 9 comes on the turn giving you the nut straight with re-draws to a higher nut straight to go along with your re-draw to the nut flush. You will have some players dominated with you having 80% equity to your opponent having 20% equity. Some clueless player is going to be staring at the current nuts, but only have 20% equity. Most of the time your advantage will be more like 55% - 45%, but don't let hands this great get played passively.

This hand checking through on the flop is a huge waste of equity. You have to build a pot and do the heavy lifting yourself. And the flush hitting kills the future action, therefore you have build a pot now instead of hoping to get action after you hit a flush.

If you end up on the flop and are saying to yourself, "I have multiple nut draws that include nut straights and re-draws to nut straights and the nut flush draw" then you have to start betting.

The way this hand was played makes me sad. I'm so sad, I'm doing Taco Tuesday a day early and going to get many margaritas.

Last edited by ladybruin; 05-17-2021 at 07:19 PM.
ladybruin is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive