So, I know that wheel card hands are bad to have (2345, 2445, 2346) but are there hands or times outside of the obvious combo hands, like (AKQ2, AJT2) or double paired hands, like AA22 or 6622, where we like raising or 3betting them? I'm directing this more toward positions other than the button as well. In the CO or on the BTN, it seems more reasonable that we would be inclined to raise something like AK22 ds but still, pure wheel cards are a question.

As a side note, In the not too recent future, in 6max, I had 3bet pre and got my aces busted by a caller with a trash 92xw on a flop of 922. It was an smh kind of moment for me but overall, I guess this is exactly the person I'd want to play against as often as possible in the future?

The reason I ask this is because it seems that if you aren't a LAG, as a tight player, it's very hard to represent having hit a board like 922 or 532, after you raised or 3Bet. On the other hand, I keep thinking that I almost have to raise (albeit, very rarely) and go to the river with a wheel card hand (assuming that the board can justify it) just to add some unpredictability to my range. Now, I would raise 3456 ds without a problem and if I raised with it, I'd at least call a 3bet too but 2345?

As always, thoughts and opinions are very much appreciated.

You hit on a lot of stuff there .. position, 3bet %, range and image.

If there's one concept I use in both NL and PLO .. it's 'If I know you only play 1/3 of the deck that allows me to play all of the deck'. I play cautiously when we share a range and I will steal/pressure you when the Board comes otherwise whether via Turn Donk bet or IP when checked to. This is not mind shattering news, just application of range and position when the action goes 'properly'.

I will probably fumble around and get slaughtered by the wizards if I go too deep on this but I am willing to use the wheel type of rundowns as openers and to flat 3bets with, but I'm probably going to limit my 3bets unless the opener is pretty wide and I'm likely to see a Flop or catch a fold. Multi-way you obviously need to be aware that a lot of your draws are not to the nuts. We also need to be deep enough to make it worth our while when we do hit, similar to a set mine in NL.

I do disagree with you a bit on the 'tight player' comment on 922 Boards. Why do you 'have' to hit the Board? 'They' have to hit the Board also to continue. And why can't you have a 2 for a dangler on 922 or AA52 ds on 532? I hope you aren't a chronic 'pot' bettor .. this is where a down bet is more economical than a blast bet. How did all the chips go in above? Were you just too shallow to not go all-in?

I lean more towards the 3+1 type of holding where I have an Ace or King with flush draw with 3 wheel cards. This gives me a strong 5-card draw to the flush and makes my trips much more stronger having the A/K to go with them for a kicker, if needed.

Kind-of a weird statement, but with this type of holding you don't necessarily want to force action but you will have to be willing to accept action. GL

I absolutely love this reply and what you're saying, especially on the steal and pressure portion. While it may not be mind shattering to you, the part about donk betting the turn or betting when checked too IP really hit home for me. I added it to my notes as a reference, in addition to "if you only play 1/3 of the deck, that allows me to play the whole deck" and "don't force action but be willing to accept it".

A year into PLO and playing no higher that .25 / .50, I'd like to call myself a TAG but truthfully, being honest, I'm tight-weak. A lot of this is from being unsure of what to do or when to stack off in a particular situation. it's particularly difficult for me when I've been on the receiving end of that aggression that you illustrated, which is compounded by my inexperience. It's led me to making many bad turn decisions and furthermore, I'm really bad at river calls and river bets without the nuts or near nuts and you can be sure that many of my opponents are well aware of this and the fact that I'll either fold to a pot sized river bet or make a bad call. I've tried going the LAG route but what I've found is that it just loses you a whole lot more money when you don't know what you're doing of how to play that style well. Not long ago, I watched a JNandez video where he said "With competence, comes confidence", which is one of the most encouraging poker lines I've ever heard, for some reason. It really stuck with me and gave me encouragement.

In regard to being a "tight player", yes, I do play more of a standard 28/17/4 - so, the vast majority of the time, bigger cards and higher rundowns. Unless you're bluffing of semi bluffing someone out when you're not hitting the board, you do have to hit it and sometimes hitting a low board can be very costly. For instance, getting invested after hitting a low two pair only to be outdrawn by an overpair, when the board pairs something else that you don't have. Of course, many times the low two pair does hold up and you win a nice pot. It cuts both ways. Still, the idea of wheel card rundowns as openers and flatting a 3Bet occasionally, really appeals to me, especially against regs. Ideally, I hope my opponents see a tight or "tighter" player and by adding more uncertainty to my holdings, showing up with a wheel hand, even on rare occasions, would seem to help my game a lot.

As far as the 922 board, yes, you absolutely could hit the board with a dangler 2 and that's why I was using the AKQ2, AJT2 as examples. In regard to your AA52 example, I was victim to a similar circumstance to that in a tourney this morning. In a 3Bet pot, my 4578 flopped straight on a 236 board was busted by my opponent who had AA23, when the turn was another 2, which took more than half of my formerly nice stack. Three hands later, my CO RFI of A227 on a board of 244 resulted in me busting out of the tourney when it all went in on the flop and my opponent had KQ47 (rivered the queen).

In regard to my original reference of my aces getting busted on a 922, it was a cash game and I can't find it in my database but from memory, there was a raise, I 3Bet, then one fold and one caller. The board was 922. When you have AA and someone has called your 3Bet, that should be a pretty good flop for aces, shouldn't it? Yes, I'm a chronic pot bettor and I wasn't short. I don't short stack and always top up automatically after every hand. The betting went something like this: 3Bet, I pot, got raised and it all went in. Maybe it was just stupidity on my part but then again, I don't expect my opponent to show up with a 9-2-wheel hand in a 3Bet pot. Outside of a hand containing 99 or the more unlikely 2 (or so it would seem), I didn't see myself being in bad shape against much of anything else there.

I empathize with your post. I feel like I am at the same stage of development. I feel comfortable swimming with the fish at PLO25 but at PLO50 there are more regs that I have trouble reading. I feel liked I am getting bullied, then I make spewy bets usually right into the nuts. Seems to be a good sign that the regs have better balanced betting/checking ranges than me and are playing more polarized ranges.

I had a hand a lot like yours--3 bet with AA OOP and bet twice into Villain on a 322 board, to get beat after by 3s full of 2s when I called a donk river bet. I couldn't believe Villain called my preflop 3 bet with trashy xx32 hand. No respect for my post-flop play, I guess.

So here are thoughts from an admittedly bad player. A 922 board is actually not terrible for an hand with an overpair like AA. On a static board like this you should be betting 1/3 pot not full pot. The board is less likely to change and so you don't need to put as much money at risk. See JNandez's book for more on bet sizing. Of course you need to include some 2s in your 3-betting range and these are the hands you mentioned already: double suited run downs (don't have to be all wheel cards I think, could include 7642 ds etc) and AA22, A245, AKK2, and so forth).

It's good to know that someone else is in the same boat that I am, except that I'm a fish at PLO 25 too I'm in agreement that PLO 50 is a bit of a change, due to more balanced betting and more players protecting their checkback range. Due to a smaller pool in the state that I'm located in, most of the .25 / .50 players are the same people that I've played against at PLO 25 or .15 / .30.

Doesn't it hurt getting your aces busted like that? Threes over twos - ouch! Still, for the players that are calling 3Bet trash hands, like xx32 or 92xx, I can't see that being a long term viable strategy for winning money. Sure, they'll stack an overpair and other hands now and then but to keep calling 3 or 4bets and either having to fold on the flop or getting beat by set over set or even hitting a wheel and then beaten by higher rundowns has to be difficult. Those are just my thoughts but other, more experienced players will certainly have better knowledge of that.

I agree with you in betting 1/3 pot or 40% on paired boards Still, had I been raised on the 922 board, I'd be very skeptical that the player was trying to bluff me out and would have probably gotten it in anyway. Lesson learned, I guess.

In regard to the JNandez book, I have it and follow his and the other coaches content on Discord, Twitch and YouTube. I was a member of the PLO Mastermind for three months and also spent time with the PLO Trainer software that they have, along with going through the 10 week transformation course, among other things there.

On Upswing, I bought the Launch Pad course. Dylan has a lot of good information in there and among other things, has a segment on playing aces. He goes over the fact that you can't be afraid of your aces getting busted, because that's fish play. It's $99 but there's a discount code where you can get it for $75, unless that's changed.

Are you a member of RIO? At $25 / month for the essential membership it's definitely worth it, in my opinion. Right now, Emty is doing a series in regard to constructing Cbet ranges on various boards. He's covered dry unpaired boards, wet unpaired board and a few days ago, the paired board episode was released. He uses visions to illustrate which boards that should be bet, depending on the pairs. For instance, ace high boards favor the IP player and have a high bet frequency on low disconnected boards like 882, 833 and 622 but the betting frequency decreases when they become more connected. The betting frequency is lowest on boards like KQQ or QQ9, QTT, etc. I'm not going to go into all of the content in it, because RIO may less than joyous about it but I can say, again, it's well worth joining. It's definitely helped my game a lot.

So I've written a mini novel here and I'll stop whining and rambling for now. Thank you for replying to the thread, it's definitely appreciated.