5/5/25, hero raises UTG+1 to 75, and we see a flop 8 ways (yes) which comes

JcTc8s

fairly nitty short stack in SB pots for 600 with only a few hundred left behind, two folds to hero who repots to 2400, ABC old guy on the button tanks for a while and eventually flats. he has 4850 left after the call and i cover

turn 5s

check, he jams, we call

maybe pretty standard, but two questions

does anyone prefer flatting the flop here to let worse draws tag along?

we know the button well. this deep, he is probably only calling flop with the nut straight, top set, or maaaaybe TT or 88 with backup. he probably folds a naked wrap but might call with wrap + Kxcc. if checked to, we only expect him to bet the nut straight. do we want to lead turn to put pressure on all his non-nut hands, since we are calling off anyway? or, do we prefer to check and realize our equity for free when he doesn't have the nuts and checks back? the more i think about it, the more i think jamming turn myself is probably better, we might occasionally win the side pot outright, also because he may not pay off if turn goes check check and we bet river.

Don't know your entire holding but assume AKQ nut flush draw (obviously). I like piling flop at any depth, shipping turn, we have enough equity and fold equity with Q blokker. Nh.

Assuming we have AKQcc I think flop can go either way. I would usually flat with such huge equity and such a nutted draw that can call pot on most turns and end up with free rolls for side pots on turns. I think your line is ok.

As played turn seems like an easy check, he’s not folding and he’s ahead. Seeing a free river is fine by us.

Think we def should raise the flop and allow him to make big mistakes vs small mistakes - hand is just too nutted to play passively. There's really no point in checking the turn - if we check he makes less mistakes jamming his nut hands and checking behind with his weaker hands. If we jam he won't fold his nut hands but can make mistakes with the rest of his range.

The general philosophy with strong combo equity is that you lean towards passive lines facing bets. The reason is that you don’t really have an equity advantage to made hands and you’re not blocking any of them. Not blocking any of them makes it more sketchy to bomb turns as made hands can be crushing you on the turn.

Playing it passively allow you to get more money in on good cards and it’s very clear which cards are bad for you and your hand is usually also a crappy bluff on those cards.

At some point your hand crosses and equity trashold though and is just too high in equity to be played passively. Not sure about this one since cards are not stated in OP

Essentially the deeper concept is one that applies in almost every hand: will seeing the turn allow you to make superior decisions vs your opponents range? Here the most likely answer is yes because when you rip it people behind you will just continue the nut straight and sets or very strong combo equity. All hands that do well vs you. They’ll fold most hands you’re actually dominating. When you flat those stay in or rip it on you sometimes, but also you get a superior decision on the turn because you can cf on a J, you can play passive on bricks and just try to hit, and you can absolutely dominate some hands and get tons of money in on a bunch of cards.

We have no showdown so I'd call this hand and raise other hands.

We could click but not sure that's great either.

@crimson really enjoy your posts and understand the points you are making which I think are all valid.

My default like in is to pot any flop bets and rip turn regardless which could be an error using your post for reference.

My question really is I get the lines you suggest work well vs a table of solid players, but exploitivly speaking if we have half a table of **** players who can come along with hands like 2 pair weak FD or pair+oesd+fd, shouldn’t we shovel money in now while we are 70/80% and before they can get away?

Thanks.

Yeah for sure, if you’re gonna get a lot of money in ahead then it’s a great line!

In my games, getting it in on the flop here is usually printing. And at least in plo5, you are supposed to raise your best draws like this for value. Maybe plo4 is different.

hey sorry guys, thought i had put the hand in the OP, i had AKQ6ccss with AQcc

A second flush draw, we can probably shove turn for value.

i made a mistake somewhere, either the 8 or the 5 was a red card. definitely didn't pick up a second flush draw on turn.

Then I still like checking turn

There probably isn't much of a difference between call or raise the flop. From a theoretical perspective call can be better, but since one player is effectively all-in, we don't gain the benefits of calling with bluff candidates such as hands with bare nut flush blocker.

In practice, I would choose based on individual table and player dynamics.

Isolating short-stack is reasonable, and hero can also reasonably get it all in 3ways as an equity favorite.

Hand looks ok.

Interesting hand.

In this specific situation, I kinda favor flatting the flop. When a short-stack nit leads into this many people on that board, he likely has a made hand. Depending upon card removal effects (i.e. he likely has at least two of your straight outs, but who knows about the rest of the table), you're likely an equity favorite, but you still need to hit your hand to win, so it works to your benefit to keep other players in the pot.

Looking at the situation in general, I'm not sure what I like. You're very deep, so you want additional money going in on the flop when your equity is best... but there's still so many people behind you that you really want to give them a chance to chase with whatever weak draws they may have, and I feel like the more people that come along, the more likely it is that cards you need are actually dead. In a hand with less people AND against stronger players, I think it may shift back to raise because they may easily fold bare straights/sets.

Regarding the flop with four players left to act and a coordinated medium high card connected board with a two flush why not flat letting others in? This also has the potential to get a raise from one of these players behind allowing for a reraise by you (being a good idea depending on who and where the raise came from). If there was a raise and reraise behind you could flat knowing that there is a made straight perhaps with a weaker flush draw and/or a set which would make the turn and river easy to play.

Keep in mind I play games with $5 blinds and! (usually) a $10 straddle about $2000 deep but the multi-way pot made me more comfortable replying since my game looks like this scaled down.