GGARJ, you're a nice guy and you're doing a great job representing the community at these meetings. But at this point, in the shed of light of the current developments, even you have to admit that these meetings are a joke and disrespectful to the community to say the least.

This.

I wonder what their next move will be, shouldn't take long with Amaya.

+1

I assume you're referring to Spin&Gos and the currency exchange margins. I agree that they have - at least in the short term - made playing conditions worse for winning players. I also think they would have come regardless of the meetings.

However, your suggestion that such developments render the meetings irrelevant and a "joke and disrespectful" is where we disagree. I'm not gonna go too deep into this before people have had the chance to read my report, but I think I got a lot done, particularly for PLO, and refuse to accept to the notion that we would be better off without the meetings.

It's quite likely that we'll see similar developments in the future given Stars' market position. I'm talking about ones that I'm just as clueless about as the rest of you. Regardless of that reality, we can't succumb to apathy and think we can't make things better for us by talking to Stars.

Even if they suck and are not as fruitful as we'd hope, isn't it better to have theses meetings compared to nothing at all?

I understand the hate and the frustration, but I don't understand why anyone would want them to stop happening (except if something better is proposed, but that is not the case)

When a girl tells you she will let you **** her at 10PM sharp friday night, 6 weeks in a row, and never shows up, would you still wait for her in week 7?

SI

no doubts

lol

ive changed my mind on this so many times. on one hand, a strictly rational perspective would suggest that something (a bad meeting with minimal results) is preferable to nothing; on the other, taking that to its logical limit and applying it to a bunch of other circumstances would result in absurd conclusions, suggesting that it alone is not sufficient justification for continuing the meetings.

on one hand, we must recognise that our bargaining position is relatively weak and therefore that expecting to dictate or even significantly influence the agenda of these meetings is unrealistic; on the other, stars also gain from these meetings - conferred legitimacy, favourable PR (at least for those who dont dig deeper into the substance/outcomes of the meetings and are simply aware that they exist), and a selection of (hopefully) well informed consumers to run ideas by, and whilst the weakness of the consumers bargaining position is reflected in the outcome of the meetings, the benefits to stars are (at least arguably and certainly in many peoples opinion) not similarly counterbalanced by benefits to the consumers.

on yet another hand, stars remain by a distance the online poker site who engage to the greatest extent with their customers, the continuation of these meetings being one example, and constructive participation rather than perceived flouncing off in a huff when we dont get everything we want hardly encourages either them to continue engaging or other companies, either current or potential future competitors, to adopt similar practices. on the other hand, should we really effectively endorse by our participation a process from which we are yet to make any meaningful progress and which is so rigorously controlled (structure/timing/duration, NDAs etc) by one party?

the meetings would, from the players standpoint, clearly be more effective if there were some kind of organised parallel process to exert noticeable if not meaningful pressure on stars to improve its current attitude towards its players. the problem is, poker players and "organised" are pretty much a contradiction in terms - organise a boycott/site switch? some ppl will figure they gain greater ev from playing in the less reg-dense fields, then some more, etc etc until no one gains any additional ev and the whole idea collapses. email campaign? everyone assumes everyone else will do it and almost nobody does. until that changes, and its highly possible it never will, we have little to no collective power and should therefore not be surprised that we can't get our agenda advanced.

2p2 still sending reps to isle of man after this oficial msg from pokerstars ?

just dont go. dont lose your time talking w them. serious.

I thought this meeting was planned for October... ?

Wow at raising the rake. Amaya was the worst thing that could have happened to online poker.

LOL

Jesus

lol

It didn't take long at all. I wonder what they have in mind for 2015, lower vpp per $ rake or just an overall rake increase.

yeah I changed the camp.
+1 for this rly.

yea... the timing of the exchange margins was a bit awkward, but I wasn't that bothered.

THIS looks pretty bad, I must admit.

Huh, you didn't knew about this? So your there complaining about the high rake and trying to get rake relief somewhere and they didn't even mention this was on the table?

^ did they talked about this in the meeting?

They didn't tell you about Spin n Go's in May.

Did they at least inform you of this change with it being only 2 weeks out?

Sect7G, I recall when you warned me whilist I was trying to defend Amaya's actions...
Well, I was pretty naive and you were spot on unfortunately

i will repite: if someone from 2p2 (or any forum) goes to this mettings, they are very very idiot.

would be pathetic .