? you're going to retire to play plo5?

lol no ,not retiring to play micro stakes.
retiring for medical reasons..
will want to move up limits as I improve ..
all the advice I see recommends playing within your bankroll..so thats the place to start ...dont you think..?

Play lower stakes PLO than NLHE. I personally feel comfortable at PLO50 and NL100.
You need a way bigger bankroll for the same stakes at PLO.

I've been playing poker for about 3 years for money. Always at low stakes. Sucked massively at NLHE even playing ABC poker. I tried omaha and loved the game, just loved it. I know people say it's a tougher game than NLHE and it probably is, but for me it was much easier to understand and actually easier to exploit.

For instance, if there's a guy at the table who only play AAxx or KKxx and refuses to let the hand go, it's easy to stack off on that guy. I also watched a vid of a pro back on my FTP days who considered folding AAxx on the flop when the board was very wet. I thought to myself 'why would you ever do that???' and then I read a little more to understand the thinking and it greatly increased my understanding of the game.

I still make some dumb mistakes but I'm trying to fold more pre so I don't have difficult situations to deal with later which has greatly reduced my loss rate. What I mean is with hands like QT84ss I'd usually call a raise in position previously. If the flop came with a flush draw I'd be willing to get it in on the flop regardless of the action on the table. After getting burned by K,A-high flush draws and or board pairing on the turn, I came to realize with Omaha, you gotta play the nuts.

Ok - so now I'm getting to my question. I feel like I'm struggling with my river betting. I feel like I'm folding rivers and not paying off draws that get there if I had a made hand, but I feel like I'm check/calling a lot of rivers and not getting value with my 2nd, 3rd nuts. In my mind I'm thinking, "I'm willing to call the river with my hand, but I don't want to put in a bet and check/raised and forced to fold." A perfect example of this came when I was the BB and Axxxss and I flopped the nut flush. Not draw, but the 3 card flush. 3 other limpers in the hand so I potted it. Only one guy called (the SB). Turn card doesn't pair the board but if someone was on a ~5678 straight draw they got there. I pot again. If he calls I'm thinking he has a set, possibly a straight, but the the thought of him having a worse flush didn't actually enter my mind. The river pairs the board. He checks and I got scared. I check behind and win the hand. He had an 8-high flush that he was calling with...and I kick myself.

I feel like this scenario happens often and I'm wondering if I'm leaving money on the table or if I'm reducing my losses by not overplaying these situations on the river because there have been other times where I'm saying 'so glad i just check/called there'.

Is there a strategy for river betting non-nut hands? By non-nut I mean you've got a great hand but not the the nuts. Thanks for the tips!

RI Don I wouldn't bet the river in that spot either. The thing is, your hand is pretty face-up and his is not. If you have him pegged as a big fish you can consider betting here, but you should have an empirical and logical expectation that he will call and you should be fairly certain that he isn't the player to try and check raise.

Thanks, man. Trying to do my best to extract value from my made hands and lose less with non-nut hands.

But aren't we all trying to do that.

Do you have any suggestions how to widen your range? I looked at my stats this month and I am playing 18/10 with 4% 3bet. So where to start for beginner who is not very good postflop?

Start "speculating" from the BTN and look for apparent weakness in villains. Any suited A is a pretty good candidate, also multigappers like J975. You just gotto be careful not to overplay draws that are likely to be dominated.

RI Don, I guess there's no definitive answer to ur v-betting problem... u just need routine in assessing villains range. In the example u provided, I'm bet/folding around half-pot. Given the guy called 2 pot-sized bets already, he's unlikely to fold a flush. I think it's even more unlikely that he'll turn a weaker flush into a bluff, so u can happily fold to a raise.

The most important thing about v-betting wider is not being afraid to make mistakes. If you do get "pipped" by a Q-hi flush vs ur J-hi flush sometimes, it's no big deal. Sometimes you can try v-betting a str8 on a flush board vs a likely set/2pair, and occasionally run into a flush. So what. Those thin valuebets will pay dividends in the long run, I guarantee it.

At micro plo it seems like it's often a 4 or 5 way limped pot with very little fold equity postflop. It seems like I should just be overlimping tons of hands that can make the nuts like suited aces for example. You're not isolating anyone with a raise so it seems like it would best just to only raise your premiums on table conditions like these. Am I thinking correctly about this?

It's just a massive limp fest at the micros and I feel like the best way to play against this is basically just to overlimp with tons of hands that make the nuts whenever they make something.

How do you guys tend to play with these conditions?

Yes, I tend to overlimp either but not too much. If I think my hand is good enough to raise, I'll raise. If it marginal with nuttyness, I'll limp. On SB I overlimp with all hand with nut possibility.

I think the key is still postflop. Don't bluff, don't overaggressive. Don't chase draw without enough equity.

NOTE:
I don't sure with hand like 9876 double suit. What to do in those tables? Postflop plan?

hand like 9876ds obv plays a lot better HU, but it still flops strong enough to always see a flop with multiways. The key is not to overplay those weak FDs, u should be looking to make 2pair+FD+SD or nutstr8+FD type hands. Villains in micros will often overplay 2pair vs str8, etc, so u should get paid with a high frequency.

What do you do with these hands against villains who only raise,reraise with KKxx?

With position being key. Let's say you're on BB with 9876ds against 15/10 reg who is solid raising from UTG?

Same situation, but you're on the button this time.

I find these spots tough because, if I 3bet, a 4bet comes. I don't mind calling, but it's fit/fold time on the flop which sucks. If I just call and the flop comes nice, these guys can fold AAxx after putting out a standard cbet.

The only way I've been able to get paid from these hands is from people who overplay AAxx, KKxx, or the LAGs who are maniacs.

vs a nit like that, just flat his raise. You're getting an ok price vs a range that has mostly just high cards, so it's fine to play fit-or-fold. If he clearly seems to hate a board that u didn't hit, u can also try bluffing him OTT/R.

Here's an example.

In this hand, I'm on BB...I make a 4bet iso play. Hadn't been four betting and if all the players come along, I'm getting 4-1 on my money, and I'm not too unhappy about that. I didn't want to call and have the other players Iso me.

I ended up going HU with a shortie who had AAxx, flopped the aces with 49, paired the fours on the turn....I took a small loss...59/41 him pre flop. Just not sure how to play these, although I think I did the right thing here and not flatting the 3bet.

What do you think? Winning longterm play?

ri don,

take a look at Bugs' free ebook (mentioned times in this thread IIRC). About ~20 pages for 3bet+4bet preflop.

Hi,

Can anyone post a review on the new Nutblocker magazine? Looks like it has a very strong team of writers, is it worth subscirbing to for learning/improving plo?

Thanks.

Started to play PLO recently. Been a bit of a learning curve. Started to just play PLO10. After my initial learning downswing and understanding position+draws+ranges with 4 cards vs 2. I've slowly started to grasp the game a bit more.



I'll post stats a bit later. Just thought I'd share this giraffe with the swong.

Hey all,

I'm an MTT player looking to learn PLO. I think I'm going to start at the lowest limits on iPoker with rakeback. I'm developing a foundation to study the game; thus far I've downloaded Equilab Omaha, have a preview copy of Tom Chambers' book, and have a host of PLO videos from Tom as well as Vanessa Selbst. I think I have plenty of study material to get started, but is there anything else I'm missing?

Thanks

Vpp/hand, volume comparisons to NLHE? PLO = much higher vpp/hand due to paying more rake? but less volume due to playing less tables?

nitting it up playing 16 tables is pretty unreasonable for PLO right?

pretty sure thats the wrong way to go about it...

also theres less volume because since theres more postflop action than holdem, less h/hr on each table

So my 80+bb/100winrate was unsustainable. I’m now through about 2.2k hands and my winrate is all the way down to about 18bb/100. What stinks though is my all-in evbb/100 is at about 53 and hasn’t changed much since I was winning at 80+bb/100. I’ve taken a number of bad beats where I was a 70%+ favorite when all the money went in. In those situations I’ve won about 3 in 10 instead of 7 in 10. I haven’t tilted and if I could figure out how to post my graph you’ll see that as my winnings too major hits my all-in EV either went up or remained flat meaning I got my money in good.

I’m doing my best not to tilt b/c in Omaha things can go downhill and fast. My question is for people who have grinded PLO for a long time. Do you have long stretches where your winnings are either way over or way under you’re all in EV? One thing I’ve actually tried to do, is stack off less frequently than my old days. I’ve done that and gotten my money in good, but still am winning less than expected. I’m sure this has happened to others, do you just grind through it?

On the flipside – I was winning above all-in EV through about the first 1k hands and I was very concerned because my expectation should have been less than what I was realizing. Through about 1k hands I hadn’t taken a single ‘bad beat’ which I know is rare in Omaha. The next 1k hands have seen numerous bad beats that are not typical. I finally won a run down when I shipped a flush and open ended straight draw on the turn and got there on the river. I was a 30% dog and felt this was my loosest play. I had made other plays but never with the thought I was ‘that’ far behind. I’ve been wrong in terms of making bad reads, but I don’t mind making a bad read if I’ve thought about it versus just ‘hoping’.

In any event, would love some thoughts on Omaha winnings versus all-in EV.

normal to not be at ev, look in bbv thread a couple pages back for sick graph from seaking.

2k hands is absolutely no samplesize whatsoever. also all-in ev can be misleading for examples like

isn't this the opposite of what I'm saying. He's putting his money in wayyy behind. I'm putting mine in ahead.

Also, what's a good sample size for omaha, given variance. I can only effectively play one table at a time unlike NLHE where I was able to 6 table prior to black friday.

yes that is the opposite, just a post i remembered, i was just explaining the example of ev can sometimes be misleading, if you look at the villian in hand 2's ev there, 96% on the flop, which makes it look like he made good decisions to get it in so good

So here's my graph for this month. As you can see early, I had no bad beats period. Then I had some and continued to have more. Since then, been pretty up and down. Found a few fish tonight and caught cards. But still way under all-in EV and I had 3 all-in situations tonight and I was 48-55% in 2 of them. Rather win money through bet/calls on showdowns than the mental stress of all-in situations. To illustrate, my non-showdown winnings are $17 but my showdown winnings are only $14. The latter used to be much higher, but the bad beats killed it. Was negative about 200 hands ago.