Second-Nut Straight v. LAG in Limped Pot - Small Stakes Pot Limit Omaha

Two Plus Two Forums Poker Strategy Omaha

Second-Nut Straight v. LAG in Limped Pot

Post Reply Subscribe

...

02-24-2024 , 09:42 PM

bigoilboomer

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2022 Posts: 134

Live 5-5

[Hero] BTN straddles 10
SB calls 10
BB calls 10
UTG LAG calls 10 (900 deep)
MP calls 10
HJ calls 10
CO Fish calls 10 (600 deep)
Hero checks Qd 7h 6c 3c (3k deep)

Pot 70

Flop Ad 5h 4s

SB checks
BB checks
UTG checks
MP checks
HJ checks
CO checks
Hero bets 40
SB folds
BB folds
UTG calls 40
MP folds
HJ folds
CO calls 40

Pot 190

Turn 7d

UTG checks
CO checks
Hero bets 125 (Am I supposed to check?)
UTG raises to 565
CO folds

Hero?

Quote

02-24-2024 , 09:44 PM

OmahaDonk

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 4,934

I think you played it fine now fold. You will have plenty of 68 to defend with.

Quote

02-25-2024 , 11:06 AM

pokerfan655

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,387

Yeh I think you have to fold here - generally speaking when you're uncapped and get raised against an opponent that really doesn't have any natural bluffs they usually have it. You would need him to get crazy with say 67dd or something to that extent, and stacks are fairly deep here for him to effectively jam.

Quote

02-25-2024 , 01:59 PM

bigoilboomer

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2022 Posts: 134

If he didn't have another 285 behind and I didn't have the Qd, I'd probably snap-call a pot-shove. In my mind, he might have 76xxdd, trying to push me off 32xx because I bet the flop and turn. But now that y'all mention it, it makes sense that I can have 86xx and 876x in my (uncapped) range.

Quote

02-25-2024 , 08:00 PM

monikrazy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,055

I think flop sizing is too small. As played, it is probably best to fold; villain can have some semi-bluffs with diamonds, but its very reasonable to show up with nut straight, and villain should expect hero has lots of hands that will stack off. Hero has so many better hands to call, and that can improve when behind.

Quote

02-25-2024 , 11:50 PM

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,781

Yes, you should check the turn. Rest is fine. Now fold.

Quote

02-26-2024 , 09:10 AM

bigoilboomer

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2022 Posts: 134

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

Yes, you should check the turn.

I thought the turn might be a check. I'm newish to PLO. Coming from NLH, I'm used to bet-bet-betting my hands. And I reduce my sizing to have a balanced range.

Should I only bet the turn if I have an easy decision to call or fold to a check-raise from either opponent (I really don't like giving free cards to two opponents)? Should my turn bet sizing be full pot if I'm sometimes checking back the second-nut straight?

Quote

02-26-2024 , 10:12 AM

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,781

You should bet the turn w/ a hand you can handle a raise with. You don't have the nuts, you can't improve, and there are a lot of rivers you don't want to see. Plus you have position. Take the free river and see what they do.

Quote

02-26-2024 , 10:44 AM

answer20

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 10,857

See above .. can't call v raise, not nuts, no improvement possible, position .. and might I add, 'don't go broke in a limped pot' >> GL

Quote

02-26-2024 , 12:12 PM

#10

pokerfan655

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,387

Here's the thing with this being 3 way - most likely someone has diamonds and we're only getting 2 streets of value here vs 2 pair/set, and the turn is perfect to grab a bet from someone who wants to see the river. On the flip side we can't get raised by anything other than 68 unless the villain is some kind of maniac - we're betting 3 way here twice where we should have a lot of 68 and there's no natural bluffs other than backdoor diamonds. If we check the turn it's hard to get value on the river and you also open yourself up to getting x/r knowing you don't have the nuts. Really prefer betting the turn.

Quote

02-26-2024 , 01:00 PM

#11

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,781

The beauty of position is we get to see what they do on the river without risking what happened on the turn. If he's a decent LAG, he's raising w/ more than just 68, but we still can't continue.

Quote

02-26-2024 , 02:21 PM

#12

bigoilboomer

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2022 Posts: 134

Now that I think about it, I don't like checking the turn unless we can comfortably bet safe rivers when checked to. If the turn and river both put us in uncomfortable situations against a check-raise, I'd rather bet the turn.

Quote

02-26-2024 , 03:29 PM

#13

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,781

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigoilboomer

You are still going to be in a tough spot on the river if anyone calls you. We don't have the nuts, we don't have diamonds, we don't have a FH draw or even a bigger straight draw.

If they just call the turn and pot a blank river, are you calling?

Quote

02-26-2024 , 03:34 PM

#14

Battlepoker

stranger

Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 13

That's always gross. You do block 86, but there's a diamond in your hand. I think bet/folding is fine.

Quote

02-26-2024 , 05:45 PM

#15

bigoilboomer

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2022 Posts: 134

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

OMG Yes.

Quote

02-26-2024 , 06:18 PM

#16

pokerfan655

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,387

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

The beauty of position is we get to see what they do on the river without risking what happened on the turn. If he's a decent LAG, he's raising w/ more than just 68, but we still can't continue.

Well if you check you allow everyone to realize their equity - not an advantage. I'm wondering what hands you expect the "LAG" to raise with OTT - remember we are betting 3 way here so our range is fairly strong. The bottom of our value range might be exactly what we have and certainly we have all the 68. He did a pot x/r with 1k back - would be big spew with other hands.

Quote

02-26-2024 , 07:22 PM

#17

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,781

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfan655

Set w/ diamonds, 88 w/ diamonds, 36 w/ diamonds. Who knows? He's a LAG for a reason. Actually, knowing how V sees H might give some insight, too.

I just don't see the point of bet/fold here -- or betting at all. We don't have the nuts, cannot improve, and they aren't folding a whole lot that got here. If they call, we hate a lot of rivers. Plus V is a LAG, which usually means he'll put on the pressure.

Quote

02-26-2024 , 07:33 PM

#18

MarkD

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,624

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

I just don't see the point of bet/fold here -- or betting at all. We don't have the nuts, cannot improve, and they aren't folding a whole lot that got here. If they call, we hate a lot of rivers..

Those are the exact reasons to bet the turn - your logic is correct, but conclusion is wrong. Then we can always check behind river.

Quote

02-27-2024 , 11:10 AM

#19

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,781

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkD

Those are the exact reasons to bet the turn - your logic is correct, but conclusion is wrong. Then we can always check behind river.

And if they pot a "blank" river, you are calling?

Quote

02-27-2024 , 01:41 PM

#20

MarkD

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,624

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

And if they pot a "blank" river, you are calling?

If I bet turn then they call oop on an Ad 5h 4s 7d [blank- let's say Ks] run out and now they come firing pot on river? Yeah, I'd be pretty tempted to call given that their line makes no sense for 68 and probably is weighted too high towards bluffs (missed diamonds) and weaker value hands (23, or 63) rather than nuts. Do you really expect this sequence?

Quote

02-27-2024 , 02:24 PM

#21

OmahaDonk

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 4,934

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

And if they pot a "blank" river, you are calling?

I think happens rarely enough that we don’t need to worry. He has no reason to think we don’t have 86

Quote

02-27-2024 , 03:21 PM

#22

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,781

Maybe I play online too much, because I'm just never betting this turn in position (free river) versus a LAG.

Quote

02-28-2024 , 09:34 AM

#23

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,781

Also, everyone here thinks H should bet the turn -- why would V check? Is a LAG (or anyone, really) going to check into two people when they bink the turn just hoping someone else bets? Does he really risk giving a free river?

Quote

Post Reply Subscribe

...