Hi all,

Hero calls an EP open closing the action in the straddle with AQ985hhcc in this 5/5/15 game and we are six ways:

Flop ($250): T-8-3hhd. Original raiser (aggro) bets $200 into the field, co, btn, and sb call. Pot is now $1,100 and hero has about that much behind. We have nfd and nut gutter and middle pair and are OOP to the field. Against even top set we have pretty good equity here and the spr is now 1 (started the hand at spr 6). I could just flat, fold on a bad turn, or jam and get some fold equity - there are probably worse draws or marginal made hands out there that cannot continue, putting some dead money/overlay into play.

Thanks,
DT

I like shove.

I like a shove, too. Use what FE you have, see two cards.

Results hero jammed, fold to first caller who re-jams, last caller calls all in for side pot and main pot, re-jammer's 88 holds against me and other V who called it off for side pot with non-nfd and a straight draw.

My opinion，that's pretty much a jam，especially when you oop

Jam.

When we shove the only sense in which we want fold equity is to fold out chops like Q9, but really we either want everyone to fold or everyone to call. The worry is that jamming gets one person to call and that person is the one with a set. Without any info on stack sizes of the rest of the people left to act, including specifically the original bettor, it's hard to know whether they're likely to call it off if they have the same stack as you, or the original bettor decides to get it all-in with his set and fold out everyone else leaving you in the worst possible spot.

Calling avoids all this, we will be getting at least 2-1, but more likely higher if someone else gets involved before you, on all the turns that you miss, and you get to get a bunch of money in with others drawing dead if you flat. Not to mention you can fold when the board pairs the turn.

I liked calling as well. It's already a larger than avg pot for the stake. I factor that in sometimes on these decisions

It matters how deep they are with each other. If we pot and aggro can make it 4K that’s not great. But if we pot and aggro jams for 1500 that could entice everyone to call which is great for our hand.

Hero is at SPR1 a fish bet 20% pot and got 3 callers, and you guys want to flat? Wtf. This is only ever a jam?

Ignore the spoiler, how often is there a set there when the action plays out like this? Hardly ever unless the game is hosted by Narwhal, and blue, hump and killer are the regs.

Calling has to be the worst option? I reckon we ship this pot with big FE a bunch, when we do get called we will often be a big favourite over crushed draws, and if there is a spaz big hand out there we are printing for the price anyway? Also and kind of important, we can’t get bluffed out by a worse hand barreling into us repping on bad turns.

He bet 80% pot and I think sets can flat this bet if they’re deep.

Given the size of the other stacks isn't provided, you'll see plenty of sets flat here.

I'm not sure where you're finding all this FE though.

We get to get the money in with people drawing pretty thin on a good few turns, and on top of that we get to save money when the board pairs the T or 3. We can't just say 'oh nfd+ngs+pair = AI', we've got to think about whether it's more profitable to call, which it looks like here.

my first instinct was shove, but i thought i would plug some worst-case ranges into PPT to confirm. vs top set, QJ97hh, AND another flush draw, hero had 28% equity 4 ways (i was surprised it was that high). 3 ways vs. 88 and a full wrap + FD was still 31%. and a lot of the more likely scenarios where opponents have weaker draws, two pairs, etc have hero at 40-50% 4 ways. so, yeah, definitely getting it in here.

yes, by getting it in now we cost ourselves the extra 900 the ~15% of the time the board pairs on the turn (assuming a few of those pair cards are in our opponents' hands if they are betting / continuing). but we accomplish two things that i think are more important, even though they may seem at cross purposes. 1, we get some two pair hands and dominated draws to get stacks in now when they could fold a lot of brick or overcard turns, and 2, we may clean up some outs when hands like Q9 or AT fold to the jam. note that we are happy to either get it in against those hands or deny them their equity now, but we are not happy to flat and let them correctly fold a lot of turns where they are behind.

flatting allows a lot of middling hands to play the turn as they would if the cards were all face up. sets are getting it in either way, so we are in a sense playing less optimally against them (getting in now without waiting for a non-pairing turn when we can probably get in against them on all those turns anyway) in order to elicit a bigger mistake from middling hands, which i think probably make up more of our opponents' ranges.

also, if we are wrong and there are a bunch of sets out there, then on the bright side that makes it much less likely for the board to pair and makes it harder for us to be in awful shape getting it in.

Yeah missed this my bad full of flu at moment.

It's not necessarily a shove what's the rush what are we 80 years old and only have ten years of poker left

Plus people will play hard against us rest of hand or if there's regulars they'll note it

Not necessarily depends on other things but I don't shove 65 percent shove 35 percent those that say shove how often do you not shove you can't play like a robot cuz we aren't robots don't there's not a clear answer to most these questions

There’s $1100 in the pot, we have $1100 behind, the PFR cbet and got 3 callers.

I have yet to see a rational explanation for flatting.

What’s the plan if you flat and an off suit 2 comes on the turn and PFR barrels? Fold? Call it off? Our hand is basically face up if we flat. Also if we bink flush on turn, we generally are not getting any action 5 ways.

Jam, we want a five way all in.

I'm not a gambler I play poker.

What we want and what we'll get is not in our hands. What we don't want to be is headsup against a set with no extra $ in there, which is a distinct possibility if we reopen the action. What we do want to be is in a position where we can get other people stacking off against us while drawing dead, and the possibility of folding when we're drawing dead and therefore saving money.

Everyone else called, is their hand face up?

Generally speaking? Yes?

Jamming SPR1 5 ways with ~40% in PLO drawing to nut/nut is not gambling?

Wazz I respect your opinions obviously, what I’m looking for is the best play in the spot generally, and my gut says it’s jam. What’s the +/- EV on flatting vs jamming. I feel like jamming wins me the pot sometimes on the flop, I feel like I often get called and I’m around 70% vs some trash. I feel like I sometimes get called and I’m 35-40% getting 2-1 on my jam.

Jam is obviously highly highly +ev, but that's not based on fold equity. We want calls. I feel like you get all folds like 1-3% of the time. If we weren't reopening the action by jamming, or everyone was clearly committed to calling, it would clearly be a jam. We're largely groping in the dark without knowing others stacks, and it could easily be the case that jam is best on that basis. On the basis that stack sizes haven't been provided, the most likely assumption in my mind is that that's because most of them have a decent chunk more money to play.