just finished reading this thread - WOW WOW

thanks to OP and other who have help ID and out the bots

I am also surprised that bot can beat 100PLO it seems without sharing hole card!

are these bots playing a short stack game?

Full stack, sir

Not sure if it's checked, but do they play a lot at the same tables? Like is the aggression from BB the same when there is another bot in the hand in SB or some unknown? Or any other tendencies of having diversity on the frequencies when other bots are in the table or not? Not sure if this can be made with HEM/PT, but should be doable with Stars database and softwares.

Please read it all guys. Lets move on to Party. I believe the guys running the same bot over there are:

ADIDASex
calmeguru
hornet014
fierceberserk
Pivovich
Ravvinn
suxyourphone

Anyone with access to PokerTableratings premium is kindly requested to post screenshots of all 7 of them with stats. I was doing my comparisons on 25-120k samples which is very messy compared to the luxury of having 1M samples on RPTR for Stars. Those are the HEM samples for the alleged botters on Party




And another screenshot showing stuff I have described earlier here http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1071



Now the compared aliases for Party (bots) and Stars (PSbots). The aliases have slightly more hands so things start to look really similar.





The Party accounts in question did go 7/7 on the stat I shared with Stars security.

One really important final note!!!

Me and my associates checked how stats are calculated in HEM and PT4. Some stats are different for the same HH sample when compared between PT4, HEM and RPTR. The most important differences are AFQ for flop, turn, river. Yes all 27 accounts on Stats from my list have really close AFQ river when comparing RPTR vs RPTR.

And they have once again really close AFQ river when comparing HEM vs HEM stats for them, but the AFQ river on RPTR is 23 on average. The AFQ river is 30 on average when looking in HEM at all the accounts.

It's obviously not been done to "reduce costs".

They were fired because they ignored reports of these players on numerous occasions by different players since October 2014.

Like I said before, this is gonna tAke a while. Stars security team don't know what they are doing so that's gonna add some time to it. Also, pokerstars wants this story to die down so that when they make the decision about compensation, they face less bad publicity and backlash.

Anyway, here's an email:


Thank you for contacting us. Your email was escalated to me as a member of the PokerStars Game Integrity Team.

We understand your eagerness to have this situation resolved as quickly as possible.

The integrity of our games is of paramount importance. There are large amounts of money being moved around our tables, and to ensure that nothing inappropriate is taking place, we must conduct complete reviews. These are serious matters, which must be reviewed carefully. Such investigations do not take minutes or hours, they can take days or weeks. Allegations of cheating in poker are very serious. As such, we cannot do this lightly. Due process must be followed.

PokerStars is regulated and subject to the rule of law. We have chosen to be based in a strong regulatory regime because we believe that regulated online poker is in the players' interests, and because it is good for the industry. A natural consequence of this is that accused players must be given a presumption of innocence, and that we must consider their situation fairly and reasonably.

At this time, we are unable to provide further comment on this case as the investigation is still ongoing. We are doing our utmost to investigate this matter thoroughly in order to reach the correct resolution, and will strive to ensure that any players deemed to have been harmed by unfair play are offered fair and appropriate compensation.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter, and for your continued patience. We will contact you with further details as soon as we are able.

for real. naive to think otherwise and start bashing Stars for doing this.

You have done tremendous work. I just have one question about this.

These bots were among the biggest winners on their stakes. How were they able to be if their stats differ THAT much from the other winning regs? Couldn't it be that someone just took a huge step towards GTO-solving PLO and programmed that knowledge into these bots?

And when i say GTO solving i dont mean totally solved. I mean, the bots would be playing higher than 100 and 200 PLO if they were AI's that totally solved GTO. It just strikes me as so weird that these guys are able to play so different from the other winning regs and still win hugely. They must be doing something right?*

*All this becomes bs when they were sharing holecards, but no evidence has been found for this, and early evidence seems to discard that theory.

Cliffs: how on earth could these bots win so much money in todays tough poker climate when all their stats seem to prove, in your words, that they couldn't be winning players?

naive is to think they did it for the integrity of the game, they where incompetent before, now just watch. afaik they fired a lot of people and not only related to ring games or bot detection*

One thing is for sure, they did it to reduce costs, When amaya bought PS they where told they where not going to fire people and thats exactly what theyre doing. not that it matters to us directly but its common sense that the people that come in will have a time adjusting and will not be as "sharp"

I see it as amaya just being amaya

The possible bots at party play 5/10 reasonably often

This doesn't mean or prove anything, all this can confirm is that you are not able to cash out. Stars have proven they are incompetent and untrustworthy! over the botting issue and I would be surprised if any of the botters left more than $5000 in their accounts at anytime.

I've seen no link off mass firings from stars and word of mouth is not proof. There's no link to this and it was started by a guy who said his friend worked at stars and now looking for a job?? I doubt people have been fired for what ever reason. When stating stuff like this at least give a link or it turns in to a mass of rumours. Schwein et al are doing a great job. 16 confirmed cheaters shut down on this list. All stats are very close and playing like a lunatic makes them the top earners over the year?? I still think whole cards are being shared due to a few dead cards and data key loggers that give screen shots to anyone you play are pretty easy to stick on a players machine. All Trojan horse TSR's run in the victims background feeding data straight to the bots. It's possible that user accounts might be compromised for these bots to be playing like rubbish taking their time to call with aces when you represent so many flushes and straights. I've seen their clocks tick down to near zero before they call with a pair against a bluff that represents a lot more combinations.

Even if they ban these players, the bot owners can always sell their bots at % of the winnings like skier_5 did.

Basically all this means that since winning program exist, any winning player becomes a suspect of botting which means good luck to anyone trying to make it against bots. And also good luck to proving that you're not a bot if you make it. The whole ecosystem becomes a joke.

I understand your point of view, but you dont have to believe it for it to be true, doenst make a difference, Truth works like that

.

Has anyone looked at the low stakes HU games to see if there are any suspicious correlated play patterns there?

It means that they literally stopped cash outs for anyone who plays those stakes on a regular basis to make sure no one cashes out any more money until they're proven innocent... Stars may not have dealt/been dealing with this in the best way possible but they're not that dumb. The suspected accounts are obviously not being allowed to cash out and if you think otherwise then ur not too bright.

Also as for Ivanhoe's question about the bots being the biggest winners. Let's be honest here 50c/1$ and 1$/2$ PLO are not difficult games to beat. I don't know who said that they shouldn't be winning players because that's pretty obviously not the case as you can see by their graphs.

They play hyper aggressive and takes shots at every pot whenever there's any weakness shown. They are hard to play against and I'm sure just absolutely destroy fish and weak regs.

The fact of the matter is that they don't make many post flop errors and put a lot of pressure on people = winning poker. It would be a different story if they were 1 or 2 tabling bigger games they probably wouldn't make any money. This is why they're all playing millions of hands at smaller stakes against much weaker opponents and clearly have made more than enough doing so. I have played hundreds of thousands of hands against them and other than the occasional completely ******ed hands they play ( I'm assuming because of the person taking over for the bot) they all just play really solid aggressive winning poker.

That being said, I'm up the most against Fedor than anyone else I've played against by more than double.
#SaveFedor?

Played lots with some of those accounts on party at 5/10. They have been around for a long time. At least 2 years. Plus who knows how many they are as you can change your sn on party (right?).

I havnt played on party in over a year. 5/10 only:






Tell me if you need hands.

Doupt theres anything on stars, atleast in the zooms.

Appendix to my post with Party screen names, managed to search them on PTR premium. Surprised to see they are all Russian, or maybe not that surprised after all.




EDIT:

Once again please note that different sites/software (PT4.HEM2,RPTR,PTR) calculate stuff in a different way. Some stats have the same definition everywhere but some dont. I never compare RPTR vs HEM or HEM vs PT4 etc. Always same source for all screenshots in one post/graph/spreadsheet.

No ones looked at anything less than $1/2 - $3/6 from $200-1000. It has been talked about and a few posts about a couple accounts doing similar things on PLO 50.
I'm sure it goes all the way down but it's Schwein taking on a massive task as it is and doing a good job.
The title of this thread is accross all poker sites. Maybe massive bot ring on pokerstars is a little too hard when they have millions of players and we are dealing with a known quantity of 27 Bots. The massive part I assume is the $4.3m that's been allegedly scammed from these alleged bots. As for suspending cashouts is a good thing but is affecting a few known legit regs like PurpleK. Makes more sense to ban those suspected of playing altogether so no more money is added to bots accounts and money allegedly stolen from recs & Regs. Things are happening now in the background at stars and let's wait on their news.

There's been a few questions on this thread of "why not play higher for these alleged bots"
1} your average $10/20 to $200/400 reg would complain a lot sooner and a lot being pros or even pokerstars sponsored players would work this out a lot quicker. No Bot would be stupid enough to try their luck at winning 30 buyins on day one and continue with a graph like Mount Everest.

So for anyone from Russia claiming they don't speak English, here's the translation from my time in Russia.

Приложение к моему сообщению с псевдонимами партии, удалось найти их на PTR премии. Удивленный, чтобы увидеть все они России, или, может быть, не то, что удивился после всех

Since the 9th of June. I have shared some stuff with them exclusively and they are welcome to read anything I post here.

I am sure they are working on it, but I guess big companies tend to move slower then freelancers and they need a higher burden of proof.