dude you are losing so much EV discussing this instead of taking his flip, like you're leaking thousands of dollars of EV per minute right now man

(you see how ridiculous this is?)

ok seriously can we 4-bet a non-potsized amount here?

What's the point of 4 betting less than pot? We're playing face up either way, so don't we want to decrease SPR?

What is your approach going to be on the flop after 4 betting? Please consider a variety of flop textures, both wet and dry, coordinated and disjointed. Also adjust for if it is heads up or three handed.

Lol u guys have no clue about this game if your falling in love with dry aces in ths SCENARIO

says the guy who can't even decide if he wants to fold or not

There ya go

I don't think anyone is falling in love with the dry aces in this situation, although AA78 isn't really that dry, but that's for another day. OOP Aces are always hard, escpecially if we have two decent players behind who is likely to call any reraise and we can't commit pre. To put it bluntly, ANY hand in that situation isn't easy, although we might want to raise it with premium hands that flop well for value, we still face a hard time if we miss the flop.

If we are ever folding aces preflop when we don't suspect someone else having the other two...we might as well give up playing all hands OOP.

If stacks are deep enough, a 4-bet of less than pot has its place, in that we are using the raise as a probing bet, to define the range of our opponent better. Smallers raises would give us room to player poker post-flop even if er get 5-betted.

Not sure if this is directed at me, but these are the questions I'm trying to ask you guys I'm a PLO noob.

Alright next question: Is AA87r better than than a rundown (e.g., QT98), a lower pair but with all 4 cards together (e.g., QQJT), or a nut suit/2nd nut suit in this situation?

Seems like a really standard call

this. and if villains can define your range so narrowly as to make your hand face-up in this spot you're playing too tight.

you should have all kinds of good rundowns and double-paired, double-suited hands here, not just mediocre to bad aces.

Going through this thread I feel like a woman digging through a pile of crap looking for her wedding ring that slipped off when she was feeding an elephant.

@op
-you've a hand,that is top 3%
-you don't see a way to play this hand profitably oop in a 3way 3bet pot....
-because of your "nitty" image

your image is a result of your strategy....

so...you either change your strat (highly recommended)...and start playing PLO
or you muck your hand w/o second thought (that's what nits do)

but pls no bitching...
"ooh,i'm so much of a nit that i even have to muck aces"

Yes, I think this is a given. The argument is that our hand may be face up if we 4bet, not if we cold call.


1) I'm not arguing there is no way to play the hand profitably, I'm *asking* if there is a way.

2) Saying my image is nitty and being a nit are two separate things; in live poker your image is often just a function of card distribution if you have no history with people. I was describing how I thought I was perceived, not making any claims about how I was actually playing.

3) No one is bitching about anything.

Well said Daniel, think the consensus of the thread has determined flatting is the best option. Still think there is merit to 4betting these spots. Sadly as usual it's turn into which 2p2er can look most like a smart arse rather than insightful input.

It seems like quite a few high stakes players didn't know the EV of a fold. I'd say that derail by itself makes it a productive thread.

Initial reaction was fold>4bet>call, and I usually play a high VPIP. krmont22 framing it in terms of bb/100 made me reconsider that playing must be better than folding. However thinking more, it's not a great spot and lean toward first reaction. I don't use PokerTracker that often for research but isn't it possible to filter a database for cold 4bets / call 3bet w/ AAxx unsuited? Some empirical data would be nice.

FWIW I like 4bet>call to get the lower SPR, possibly HU.

And what is it? Just curious what camp you are in since you seem quite positive.

I just don't see the 4 bet argument at all
How are you gonna play this against two good players out of position post flop
Suprised this hand is even being debated

There's no camp, folding is always 0EV.

It can be minus EV in the sense of opportunity cost of passing up on a +EV play, but the fact that you are dealt AA shouldn't matter in the overall EV of the spot since you put in the blind bet before being dealt AA.

TO THAKID:

I'm probably the only one that made an argument in favor 4betting that I see. I saw good arguments (and ******ed ones) ITT in favor of various things, which swayed my stance a bit closer to flatting.

If you cold4 btw, UTG opener won't necessarily flat at all, so the assumption is that you will most often play a HU pot with a fairly defined range at an annoying SPR vs someone who is smart enough to exploit it.

If original opener autocalled our cold4, it would be an easy 4bet since we would reduce the SPR to ~1.3 3way, which takes out positional and skill advantage with us autoshoving most flops.

i was referring to this:

Mid click 4 bet and act like you only wanted to call. Even go as far as to call the floor and argue. Then when villain 5 bets you shove.

/\ now that's a sexy line

Should we 4bet ANYTHING in this spot?

Mucking AAJ10ds, lower that variance

top rundowns, top aces, top kings and nut queens, AKQQds, AQQTds etc

do you think you're a favorite in this GAME? we are losing the forest for the trees - sounds like your best move is to get up and find a different game.