HU 2/4 4bet QQds 200bb. - Small Stakes Pot Limit Omaha

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HU 2/4 4bet QQds 200bb.

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06-17-2010 , 09:17 PM

2+2=5

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,540

villain is aggressive and solid overall. his main game is limit holdem. can barrel and valuebet thin. he was 3betting a bunch at this moment of the match. is this fold on the flop?

BB: $993.25
Hero (BTN/SB): $793.75

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is BTN/SB with Q

Hero raises to $12, BB raises to $36, Hero raises to $108, BB calls $72

Flop: ($216.00) J

(2 players)
BB bets $215.50, Hero?

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06-18-2010 , 12:32 AM

donkey_king

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Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,037

Don't think you can fold. Peeling and deciding on turn seems like the best option.

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06-18-2010 , 12:56 AM

kagame

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Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,042

Are you only three betting big pairs? Does your opponent know that you have AAxx or KKxx here almost 100%? (I know you have neither but you have a ds QQ and that makes me suspect you 3bet rarely)

I think you are not going to fold out anything that has you beat by raising. You could be in terrible shape. However, why is villain leading into you? Do you usually cbet AAxx or KKxx even on these awful flops? I think villain is weak and that you have decent equity.

In that light, call and take the pot away on the turn if he lets you.

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06-18-2010 , 04:15 AM

bevo_bux

adept

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 899

shove

and pray

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06-18-2010 , 04:26 AM

bevo_bux

adept

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 899

if im 4betting and flop that well, im NEVER goin to fold here at 200bbs. calling is an option if we were deeper, but shove is clearly the best play imo.

i know we dont have any fold equity, but shoving is best play.

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06-18-2010 , 10:52 AM

styx2000

adept

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 902

i dont like the 4bet with this stack size. i would much rather 4bet a rundown hand, paired hands flop so bad even with the flush draws. especially QQ are really bad.

given the preflop play and an aggressive opponent i would ship the flop with overpair, open-ender and backdoor clubs - even without fold equity.

interesting lead by him, wouldnt he c/r most of the hands he wants to commit with? if you check behind he will often win the pot anyway i would think.

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06-18-2010 , 10:39 PM

HeyEveryone

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 639

I fold.

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06-19-2010 , 10:50 AM

TGSM89

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,491

4-betting this hand 200 deep is just bad

as played I think it is pretty close on the flop equity wise.. I probably just jam it in

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06-19-2010 , 11:02 AM

Tonnie1

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 560

I guess he could jam fairly light cuz u have AAxx as perceived range. so get it in

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06-19-2010 , 08:22 PM

#10

bevo_bux

adept

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 899

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGSM89

4-betting this hand 200 deep is just bad

as played I think it is pretty close on the flop equity wise.. I probably just jam it in

what makes 4betting this hand so bad ???

what kind of hands are you 4betting and at what stack sizes would it be okay to do it with KQQxd ??

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06-19-2010 , 10:27 PM

#11

Syous

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Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 6,907

i don't see how continuing here could be profitable

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06-19-2010 , 10:33 PM

#12

bevo_bux

adept

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 899

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syous

i don't see how continuing here could be profitable

are you advocating folding ??

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06-20-2010 , 01:25 AM

#13

Doorbread

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Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 9,762

You need 46%. I don't 4-bet pre usually, but it's not bad. This can definitely become a shove if you take some of the stronger hands out of his donking range which you would know better than anyone else.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: J

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
KcQc2hQh	44.87%	251,089	36,298
JTBB,JTMM,JT*,AKQT,AKQ,KJQ,(KQ* & ss*),JBBB,JJBB,TTMM,77MM,Ass7*,89MM,KQJ9	55.13%	312,613	36,298

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06-20-2010 , 01:47 AM

#14

CompEng

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 446

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doorbread

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: J

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
KcQc2hQh	44.87%	251,089	36,298
JTBB,JTMM,JT*,AKQT,AKQ,KJQ,(KQ* & ss*),JBBB,JJBB,TTMM,77MM,Ass7*,89MM,KQJ9	55.13%	312,613	36,298

just fyi, putting in jt** already includes jtmm and jtbb, so those 2 are redundant (adding them won't change the weights)

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06-20-2010 , 01:52 AM

#15

Doorbread

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Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 9,762

thanks

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06-20-2010 , 04:35 AM

#16

bevo_bux

adept

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 899

DOOOOOOOOR BREEEEEEEAAAAAAAAD

love ur avatar

im drunk, that is all

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06-20-2010 , 12:08 PM

#17

TGSM89

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Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,491

Quote:

Originally Posted by bevo_bux

what makes 4betting this hand so bad ???

what kind of hands are you 4betting and at what stack sizes would it be okay to do it with KQQxd ??

when you 4-bet 200 deep you want to be really popping strong kings/aces or any hand that flops well often..

People are v rarely folding to 4-bets 200 deep and QQKx ds doesn't flop amazing, and on the occasions when you get 5-bet you are not happy because all those hands have us beat or really beat...

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06-21-2010 , 06:37 AM

#18

Zeestein

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Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 6,918

easy shove

sux but ya gotta do it

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06-21-2010 , 01:07 PM

#19

StreamlineR

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Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,963

can we call and continue on any non-spade and non-J ?

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06-21-2010 , 02:19 PM

#20

donkey_king

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Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,037

Quote:

Originally Posted by StreamlineR

can we call and continue on any non-spade and non-J ?

I'm almost never folding unless villian shoves on a spade turn that doesn't complete our straight.
calling and getting it in on most turns/bluffing turns>jamming flop>>>>>>>>>folding flop imo

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06-21-2010 , 08:03 PM

#21

Doorbread

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Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 9,762

Dk the problem with your plan is that spade combos in our 4-bet range almost always shove flop and shoving flop with our actual hand will be neutral to slightly +ev. If we fold incorrectly on future streets it's a huge mistake.

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06-21-2010 , 08:44 PM

#22

donkey_king

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Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,037

I think shoving flop is clearly +ev but not convinced it's the most +ev play. Can we fold out more hands on turn than we are going to fold incorrectly ourselves if we just call?

hmmm... just realized we had less than I thought in stacks on turn if we call flop. 470 in stack and 646 in pot. Could make a better argument for calling if we started with 900ish but as is you aren't gonna be able to fold out sets if a flush card comes on turn...

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06-21-2010 , 10:04 PM

#23

Doorbread

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Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 9,762

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doorbread

You need 38%. I don't 4-bet pre usually, but it's not bad. This can definitely become a shove if you take some of the stronger hands out of his donking range which you would know better than anyone else.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: J

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
KcQc2hQh	44.87%	251,089	36,298
JTBB,JTMM,JT*,AKQT,AKQ,KJQ,(KQ* & ss*),JBBB,JJBB,TTMM,77MM,Ass7*,89MM,KQJ9	55.13%	312,613	36,298

oops

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06-21-2010 , 10:46 PM

#24

CompEng

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 446

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doorbread

oops

? you need ~43.2% to shove flop profitably (assuming he's never folding after he pots). unless i'm missing something

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