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How will the rake changes on PS affect a player trying to grind out of the micros? How will the rake changes on PS affect a player trying to grind out of the micros?

12-02-2014 , 12:20 PM
Very few pokerrooms are available for me to play in from Belgium, so basically pokerstars.be is my only option (other than unibet which I haven't really tried).

I know that even now the rake makes grinding PLO really tough and a lot of people just get out of micro PLO by going breakeven with rakeback.

Anyways, my goal is to grind out of microstakes. Currently I'm playing 10PLO and I'd say I'm pretty breakeven overall although I do believe I'm becoming better quite quickly... With the changes to the rake I've heard that it will become even harder to grind out of micros in PLO and it may be necessary to make the switch to NLHE if you really want to build a bankroll and move up stakes and that PLO won't be worth it to play until midstakes.

I like the game of PLO because I can see more flops and I don't have to be 3betting or getting 3bet every hand and that makes the game more fun for me in general. But if because of the rake changes on PS I won't be able to build a bankroll in the micros then I may have to move to NLHE and not come back to PLO until (if) I get a bankroll high enough to support midstakes PLO.

I'd really like to get some of you more experienced players input on this and help me decide whether I should stick to PLO or move to NLHE for building up a bankroll from the micros.
How will the rake changes on PS affect a player trying to grind out of the micros? Quote
12-02-2014 , 02:34 PM
Someone corrects me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding pokerstars.fr, .be, .it will not be affected by the rake changes.
How will the rake changes on PS affect a player trying to grind out of the micros? Quote
12-02-2014 , 03:12 PM
^^

Pokerstars.be and Pokerstars.dk are incorporated in the .com network, so any rake changes on pokerstars.com will also hit those sites.

Pokerstars.fr, Pokerstars.es and Pokerstars.it are closed networks with individual rake schedules.


@ OP

The only way the latest rake change affects you, is if you play heads up. The rake cap was increased from 50c to $1 for HU cash games, however this was the only change to micro - mid stakes cash games

So to the extent you only play 3 handed or more, you will not be affected at all
How will the rake changes on PS affect a player trying to grind out of the micros? Quote
12-02-2014 , 03:28 PM
^^^

oh that's nice to hear. So this won't affect any hands as long as there are at least 3 people at a table, even if the 3rd person wasn't involved in the pot correct? Even in a sb vs bb situation?

What if only 2 people are seated at a 6max table?
How will the rake changes on PS affect a player trying to grind out of the micros? Quote
12-02-2014 , 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xptboy
What if only 2 people are seated at a 6max table?
Find a table with a few more fish
How will the rake changes on PS affect a player trying to grind out of the micros? Quote
12-03-2014 , 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xptboy
Very few pokerrooms are available for me to play in from Belgium, so basically pokerstars.be is my only option (other than unibet which I haven't really tried).

I know that even now the rake makes grinding PLO really tough and a lot of people just get out of micro PLO by going breakeven with rakeback.

Anyways, my goal is to grind out of microstakes. Currently I'm playing 10PLO
From the site's perspective, according to a model I built from Unibet hands at that stake:

Unibet PLO10 rake is 92bb/100
PS' PLO10 rake is 130bb/100

You'd need to divide by the number of players at the table to get the amount per player.
How will the rake changes on PS affect a player trying to grind out of the micros? Quote
12-03-2014 , 01:35 PM
Poker stars micro rake is not significant. It is actually the smallest rake, the smaller the stakes. IIRC

The only problem is cap - but in micros, when you are reaching cap or in any situation, you should have a higher edge than base rake %.

The occasional bluff should pay all your rake. Your value ranges and bet sizings can be optimised.

honestly people make way too huge of an issue out of micro rake.

The rake is worse at higher stakes where edge is smaller, the cap is lower, but you are paying a tonne more $$$$$, relative to doubling your volume at a half stake. Someone should test that out.

i.e 500k hands at plo5 rake = $? ........................................ 250k hands at plo10 rake = $?

TAG styles are better at higher stakes with lower cap in terms of bb, but they are essntialyl just passing money to each other inbetween red and blue lines.
But good LAG players should make way more bb/100 at lower stakes. TAG styles will eat rake way more - when you have your 54:46 flips. It's counter intuitive maybe, but trust me. it's all about stealing to pay your rake. Let them pay it for you by folding.

Last edited by Mt.FishNoob; 12-03-2014 at 01:40 PM.
How will the rake changes on PS affect a player trying to grind out of the micros? Quote
12-03-2014 , 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mt.FishNoob
Poker stars micro rake is not significant. It is actually the smallest rake, the smaller the stakes. IIRC
Kind of, it depends. If you do 5% to 300c cap at every stake, rake from the site's perspective is roughly:

PLO4: 149bb/100
PLO10: 154bb/100
PLO25: 142bb/100
PLO50: 115bb/100
PLO100: 93bb/100
PLO200: 59bb/100
PLO400: 34bb/100

A lot of sites rake a LOT more than that at PLO4 though - iPoker do 6.67% to 200c at NL10, which is 202bb/100 (using the model I built from Unibet poker hands, so this is only roughly correct). Unibet's is half that at NL10, so it makes a big difference to win rates.
How will the rake changes on PS affect a player trying to grind out of the micros? Quote
12-03-2014 , 01:53 PM
Yeah, there are meta player pool variables though, I would say the peak is at least up to plo25 due to this, unlike those stats which put at at like pl017 or w/e

Rake as base % at plo2 is really nothing and not many places are better than stars if any at all for this, if you compare it to the spot by spot potential edge due to player pool weakness - cap is more damaging as edge balances out with competence, you will be having to pay cap alot mroe times before you bust them and they quit the table -0 this also shows how it's not good to think of rake in terms of bb/100 (rake should be perceived relative to a unit of 'how long before a busto cycles takes to occur between two players') because in certain spots you have to play 200 hands rather than 100 for the same edge to go through the gradients (edges). There comes a point where the competence of players actually starts to become exploitable, as more GTO-like strategies may fall victim to the plo2 player who accidentally outplays you. I put this at plo50 subjectively based upon my opinion of the payer pools/mainly differences in zoom, and your weak reg that loses his 4-8 tables @ any stake.

Last edited by Mt.FishNoob; 12-03-2014 at 01:58 PM.
How will the rake changes on PS affect a player trying to grind out of the micros? Quote
12-03-2014 , 03:44 PM
Ok so i think for me:

- the rake changes won't affect me too much at all
- a good player should be able to beat microstakes plo and grond up a bankroll
- nlhe and plo are very different games. If im better at plo and want to grow my small ($1000) bankroll, i should just do it playing plo since im already playing it.

Unless someone says that a serious player should always start off with nlhe (for whatever reasons im not sure?) then i think ill keep playing plo
How will the rake changes on PS affect a player trying to grind out of the micros? Quote

      
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