How to play against loose preflop raiser? - Small Stakes Pot Limit Omaha

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How to play against loose preflop raiser?

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07-05-2023 , 06:24 PM

acepokerblog

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 301

PLO 2/2 8-handed (live, timed rake)

I'm eff stack with 186.

UTG puts down 5 straddle.

2 limps by loose passives. I call in SB with (K4)K6.

BB pots to 35. He’s been raising around 30% of his hands but usually not from the blinds. He was usually raising from late and middle position to attack the limpers. Everyone else was just limping in even if they had AA.

He would raise too to gain position but it often didn’t work because many players were cold-calling his preflop raises.

Also, the BB limped around 30% of his hands so he was pretty loose in general.

UTG folds his straddle. The 2 limpers call and it comes back around to me. There is 115 in the pot.

Your play?

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07-05-2023 , 10:03 PM

CardiffGiant

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 528

ship.

one of the many advantages of short-stacking is spots like this are easy to play.

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07-05-2023 , 11:11 PM

frankyx

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2023 Posts: 26

In general, 3 bet that player looser if you have position (and they actually fold pre). In this example, easy ship. KK46 on 37BB is good enough you just have to hope you aren't running into aces.

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07-06-2023 , 07:02 AM

wazz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 14,755

At a guess someone raising 30% overall would probably be raising ~10% from the blinds in a limped pot. Ship it. Unless you're on a short roll and they're all awful postflop.

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07-06-2023 , 01:07 PM

MarkD

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,624

In a live setting, there is no way the Hero knows the villain is raising 30% range. It is much more likely he is raising a much tighter range than that, but just happens to have a good run of cards in that session. I definitely have periods, where I am raising 30%+ hands, dealt to me, but that is not my converged statistic.

Ie. Selection bias, don't draw huge conclusions from a small sample.

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07-06-2023 , 01:36 PM

acepokerblog

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 301

Thx for replies. I did ship. He had AA but I do think I'm good most of the time. Everyone else folded.

Is calling much worse than shipping?

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07-06-2023 , 04:23 PM

psilocybin

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 110

Shipping > calling since you have less equity multi-way and it may be harder to navigate (for instance, in marginal postflop spots with people to act behind, finding the call when you’ve got enough equity to continue).

Also, shipping creates dead money which lessens the impact of when you do get it in bad.

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07-06-2023 , 04:50 PM

AKQJ10

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 13,299

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

At a guess someone raising 30% overall would probably be raising ~10% from the blinds in a limped pot. Ship it. Unless you're on a short roll and they're all awful postflop.

Doesn't that make him a favorite to have aces here then if aces are 6% of all hands? Assuming your read is correct etc.

Allowing for some uncertainty about his true range I think it's ok to stack off here but it's pretty marginal. IIRC ss kings aren't too much of a favorite over four unpaired with an ace and no king, right?

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07-06-2023 , 05:10 PM

frankyx

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2023 Posts: 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKQJ10

KKss vs top 10% w/o AA, K, but with an A is 55.7/44.3

Pretty decent considering dead money too.

Overall though, vs a top 10% range KK46ss is 48.1%, pretty easy shove w/ the dead money. Aces should be 1/39 or 2.56%

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07-06-2023 , 05:10 PM

#10

wazz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 14,755

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKQJ10

My recollection is AAxx being 2.5% of all hands and then a minuscule number of AAAx and AAAA on top.

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07-06-2023 , 05:24 PM

#11

AKQJ10

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 13,299

Sorry yeah 2.5%. I don't know where I got the 6% number. PLO books used to be really bad.

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07-06-2023 , 05:26 PM

#12

AKQJ10

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 13,299

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankyx

KKss vs top 10% w/o AA, K, but with an A is 55.7/44.3

Pretty decent considering dead money too.

Overall though, vs a top 10% range KK46ss is 48.1%, pretty easy shove w/ the dead money.

My error aside that doesn't mean it's an easy shove, just that shoving is safe. You'd also need to know the opportunity cost of calling and playing postflop. Against bad opponents that might be better.

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07-06-2023 , 07:30 PM

#13

acepokerblog

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 301

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankyx

Thx for the percentages. Very helpful since I'm learning the game.

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07-07-2023 , 08:54 AM

#14

frankyx

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2023 Posts: 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKQJ10

Yeah, good point. In this specific example, KK46ss in a 4-way pot probably isn't the hand you can really outplay multiway though. It doesn't flop particularly smooth

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07-10-2023 , 11:37 AM

#15

MarkD

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,624

Quote:

Originally Posted by acepokerblog

Thx for the percentages. Very helpful since I'm learning the game.

To piggyback on this, even if we give the villain a range of AA, KK, and then four cards T+ without 3 of a kind or 4 of a kind then we are up against 6.3% of hands and we have an equity of 40.7% with your hand.

Ship it.

All-in Equity

	Equity %	Wins Hi %	Ties Hi %	Wins Hi Count	Ties Hi Count
[T+][T+][T+][T+]!RRR...	59.3338%	56.2210%	6.2257%	337326	37354
Kx4xKy6w	40.6662%	37.5533%	6.2257%	225320	37354

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07-10-2023 , 11:53 AM

#16

MarkD

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,624

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankyx

Aces should be 1/39 or 2.56%

Not sure how you get the 1/39, I'd be curious about the logic of how you came up with that. I did it the long way:

C(4,2) * C(48, 2) / C(52, 2) = 2.499%

Propokertools gives 2.5% for AA but not AAA.

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07-10-2023 , 12:23 PM

#17

AKQJ10

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 13,299

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkD

Not sure how you get the 1/39, I'd be curious about the logic of how you came up with that.

I just take it to be an odds expression of 2.5% = 1/40 = 39:1. Also curious if there's some other shortcut there

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07-10-2023 , 01:42 PM

#18

frankyx

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2023 Posts: 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkD

Not sure how you get the 1/39, I'd be curious about the logic of how you came up with that. I did it the long way:

C(4,2) * C(48, 2) / C(52, 2) = 2.499%

Propokertools gives 2.5% for AA but not AAA.

I wasn't excluding AAA out of laziness, so you get very slightly more hands, 2.57% including AAA and AAAA

No shortcuts afaik

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07-10-2023 , 05:43 PM

#19

acepokerblog

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 301

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkD

	Equity %	Wins Hi %	Ties Hi %	Wins Hi Count	Ties Hi Count
[T+][T+][T+][T+]!RRR...	59.3338%	56.2210%	6.2257%	337326	37354
Kx4xKy6w	40.6662%	37.5533%	6.2257%	225320	37354

What does your query look like for four cards T+ without 3 of a kind or 4 of a kind?

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07-10-2023 , 06:14 PM

#20

MarkD

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,624

Quote:

Originally Posted by acepokerblog

What does your query look like for four cards T+ without 3 of a kind or 4 of a kind?

That is the sim. I guess the actual range got sniped a bit in that table but it looks like this:
AA, KK, [T+][T+][T+][T+]!RRR

Which is any AA**, any KK**, and any four cards T+ that does not contain three of a kind.

I could have eliminated AAAA and KKK* combos as well with:
AA!RRRR, KK!RRR, [T+][T+][T+][T+]!RRR

But the result is virtually identical with 40.62%.

If that doesn't help then I'm not sure exactly what you are asking.

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