Okay, I want to start off by saying two things:

1) I'm new to PLO cash games.

2) If this is a "stupid question" I'm sorry. Like I said, I'm new.


My question is pretty simple. If you have the nuts without draws to bigger nuts in Omaha and you have a chance to get it all in on the flop, are you supposed to take it?

I've been doing amazingly well at "nut peddling" PLO25 - or at least I thought I was. But, over the last 3-4 days I've lost 12 buy ins by getting it all in on the flop, and 10 of those times I had the nuts (either nut flush, top set, or top straight) when I did it. But using this strategy, it suddenly feels like my bankroll is crashing down.

Usually when this happens it's in a multi-way pot (I can't figure out how to isolate in PLO, if it's even possible - even 3-betting usually yields 3-4 callers), and I'll see a raiser and a few callers in front of me on a draw heavy board, but one in which I have the nuts.

Is it right to just ship it in? Is it a leak, or just variance? Lately it seems like especially with top set, it just doesn't hold vs. 1-2 callers who have flush draws or wraps.

I'm waiting for Hwang's book to arrive in the mail (should be here Friday) and I keep running the hands through odds calculators, and it looks like mathematically, I'm not doing anything wrong. Obviously, people aren't going to put their chips in bad if their draw is busted on the river, so getting callers when you have a made hand vs. their draw seems like the only way to take down a big hot.

IDK - should I be waiting for a turn card to see if my nuts crash and burn before I let the pot get huge?


Also, as long as I'm on the "help, I'm a PLO n00b!" vibe, given that it's my intent to nut peddle (based on the fact that people at low limits just never seem to fold, ever, for any reason), I'm pretty tight about my starting hand selection.

I play full ring games, and I'm seeing about 18-21% of flops, over a 5000 hand sample size. I'm seeing the Big Blind about 70% of the time, due to there being no preflop raiser. I don't complete the small blind with marginal hands. Should I be playing more hands than this? (I'm pretty certain I'm not playing too many.)

It's just the variance of PLO. A set with no redraws is 60/40 vs a 13 card wrap, 55/45 vs a 16 card wrap and 65/35 vs the nfd. Basically, you're just flipping for your stack in most of these situations, and sometimes you win 5 straight and other times you'll lose 5 straight.

As for hand selection, 20% seems alright for full ring. A good TAG in 6max is about 24 VPIP, and full ring should be slightly lower.

Thanks for the reply.

To clarify: It's still good to get it in with the nuts on the flop (even in multi-way pots) because at worst you're still flipping. That's what seems logical, anyway.

Although that does make me wonder about the viability of flop-shoving long term for another reason: the rake. If you're constantly in 60/40 situations, it seems like the rake will get you pretty damn close to even, in the long run.

It depends on which "nuts" you have. For example, if you have the nut straight with KQxx on a JT9 board with 2 spades, and you have no spades in your hand, you're actually a 65/35 dog against a set with the nfd, and a hand like AKQx is freerolling you for the higher straight. In terms of straights, if you have no redraws, you might want to slow down a peel off a turn card before you shove. It might save you money in the long run.

I would probably still shove nut flushes/sets on the flop, but it helps if you have blockers. Like, if you have AATT on a AJx rainbow flop, you should feel pretty confident when you shove, because your TT is going to block some outs against a hand like KQT9.

If you're constantly in 60/40 situations, you're still gonna make a profit in the long run, even with rake. You just need the patience and discipline to not tilt off all your money when you lose 10 races in a row.

omahaha at the lower levels has crazy variance

in some games, the fact that you cant get your villians to lay down a hand is actually a good thing
in this game it isnt lol

i have started to 8 table small stakes pl omaha (6max) and have been doing alright
the money comes and goes alot more than holdem though

I've heard a lot about blockers in Omaha, but being new, the idea is strange to me. Thanks for tossing that in there.

Mainly, I'm hearing that perhaps it's not a good idea to go nuts, with say, 78xx on a 569 board with a flush draw, if I don't have any draws to bigger nuts? It seems like straights have a pretty big chance of getting drawn out on.

Edit: I do typically dump sucker straights and draws to the second nuts. Example: Board is 79T and I have 68xx, and there's a bet and a call (or two) in front of me. Is that pretty standard, or should I be playing those hands more aggressively to find out where I stand?

Top set or nut flush, you almost always want to get all-in on the flop if you can.

Naked nut straight's different, you'll never make a big mistake getting it in, but there are a lot of times where it can be more profitable to flat-call a bet and wait for a safe turn.

Oh, also 12 BI is nothing and Hwang's book is just going to give you more advice on how to nut-peddle. If you want to learn to beat the online 6-max game, you'll have to play significantly LAGgier.

I figured I'd have to change game plans as I move up and change from full ring to six max. It's just that with the extremely loose nature of micro limit full ring PLO, I can't figure out any other way to be profitable other than solid nut peddling.

Edit: I am noticing, now that I'm paying attention, how possible it is to get into "freeroll" situations - where you flop the nut straight and also a set or a flush draw as well. This was possibly happening to me before, and I just didn't notice how huge of an advantage it seems to be.

Just today I'm up three buy ins, largely in part due to taking advantage of freeroll situations. Sorry, that's probably obvious PLO play to most people, but it's a significant addition to me.