Hey, I'm a moderate winner in the .5/1 and 1/2 PLO zoom on stars. I've seen in my holdem manager app is that I'm hemorrhaging money playing 3bet and 4bet pots OOP, largely on flops that are rag paired vs a range with rags or turns/rivers that bring in straights that I don't really have (722 SB vs BB, or like 47K 5 x BB vs BTN).

I feel like I need to be a little looser to have some board coverage there and actually have strong hands in my checking range. But finding some of these hands is rough.

I did cold 4bet Q986ds in the SB vs EP open BTN 3bet yesterday off of a HUD read, but apparently that's a solver approved 4bet?? Having a hard time finding these spots in real time.

This is my 3bet+ results graph



Basically my interpretation is I'm folding too many hands post when I don't have many strong hands to call down with. But I feel like I can't be calling down my entire stack with one pair too often. Like this hand is a prime example of me getting abused imo. Felt like his 3betting range would have some KKds, and he gets to value bet EXTREMELY wide, as I just don't have enough nut hands here.



My 3bet % is 6.95. VPIP 25.2. Any insight is greatly appreciated, really trying to plug this leak

Sounds like you play too many weak hands out of position, and since PLO is more position than anything, that's a leak.

Here you are in position so just follow through on your play. Pot the flop, pot the turn allin. Why did you make the half flop bet on such a great flop for you? If he's got KK you lose. If he has anything else, fine. You got the ace of clubs.

And how did that 5 of diamonds hurt your hand? Even after you made the half flop bet, you are close to being able to bet allin on the turn on the ultimate random garbage board.

find softer games

Potting flop has to just be annihilating money this deep lol. Just cbetting for value versus some kings, immediate equity versus basically any non king since they won't have NFD.

Might be worth? It feels very +EV to jam 1000+ hands every day, but I get how softer games would make issues like this basically non existent. I'm winning at like 15bb/100 over 10k hands for now, using the all in cash out option as well because my roll is quite tight ATM. But if I'm beating the game for that clip when I'm paying 1% rake on all allins I'm happy to just stay and grind.

I'll just comment on the posted hand and say that isn't the turn SPR right around 1? I can't imagine not just jamming it.

My rational was basically I'm only getting called by better, likely not going to be pushing him off much equity if I do have the best hand, and block the NFD. Thought I could check and evaluate some rivers. But on that river card my range is just too weak idk. Also couldn't come up with many light floats in 4bet pots so I don't think he has a ton of air.

You must have misread the hand.

You don't want to be called. And if you are, you want it to be as big a mistake as possible.

You've got no draw. You aren't very deep. Making any sort of small bet gives your opponent good pot odds and great implied odds. Use your fold equity, don't let your opponent use fold equity against you. This is PLO 101. There is no more money to be made here, only equity to be given away. Take the pot most of the time. Lose a big pot some of the time win a big pot some of the time.

Get PLO vision or PLO trainer.

PLO trainer actually has this hand as a call to the 3bet this deep which makes sense to me.

Blindly lighting 200bb on fire every time I completely miss the board with aces? And flop is SPR 2.5 what do you mean "you aren't that deep" this is a 4bet pot ffs

Talked with somebody in the PLO mastermind and I think he has good reasoning. Betting 1/3rd OTF with future key blocker which is useful at higher SPR. And just calling the 3bet pre. And then check back turn and fold the river just because our blockers are quite poor. I do think most of his bluffs with be Kxxx hands though. Or maybe AA once in a blue moon when he wants to push me off a chop.

Being able to bet allin on the turn is the definition of "not deep". If you think having 175 with a pot of 67 is "deep", then we will never be using the words the same.

You didn't "miss the flop". This is a great flop for AAc under the circumstances. No one playing a coordinated hand hit this flop except KK or something like 7889.

A 1/3 bet is the worst possible action, other than betting smaller than that. There is no positive equity to gain, only equity to give our opponent. A Kxxx has over 40% equity here, and all the implied odds. K with a flush draw is over 45%.

You spewed 66 of your 210, let yourself get outplayed, and didn't see the showdown. You rightly see this as "getting abused". But you don't want to see the bad line you took. basically, either bet more on the flop to try and take it there, or if you view this as "missing" then check and hope you catch a miracle on the turn. Don't bet a small amount on the flop then abandon it on the turn inviting the opponent to steal the river.

Basically, you won't get abused if you either commit more to hands like this, or less. Don't don't make halfhearted attempts to win medium pots where you think you miss and surrender.

Actually, I completely agree with that I took a bad line. Just calling the 3bet is the best move here. I don't agree with basically anything else you're saying though. Potting this flop this deep isn't supported by basically anything.

Ok, you are a giant winner.

This assumes you play in a similar way that the solver does post, and it's based on assumptions about what BB is 3betting.

Let me be someone else who says it, _YOU AREN'T DEEP_.

You have less than 3x SPR on the flop. The pot is huge ... but that doesn't change anything but the variance. If you raised pre. and got one caller with 100bb effective you'd be more than three times as deep.

If words don't have meaning it's pointless to post.

Would it be ok if florid $60 pf and we have $170 left to bet $42.50 on flop then all in on turn no matter what?

Hey Joe, I think we've had this discussion before. Being in position means you should be betting smaller not larger. That's not up for debate, you admit it yourself.

That doesn't make any sense as a general rule. The point of position is you have more options.

It is an interesting idea that the OPs problem with these types of situations might not be anything else other than primarily in assessment of "deep", including not recognizing what might be deep preflop is not deep after significant preflop action.

Yes, like the option to donk off 200bb into somebody with a very narrow range? When I say we are "deep" it's because we are in a 4bet pot where we got to play a flop AND a river, how often does that happen in PLO??? I want my side cards to help at least a little bit to GII. At least block a pair, maybe don't block some of his lighter flop floats.

knox... if you are on PLO Mastermind I think there's a video series called Bet Sizing. I think they advocate for at least a double barrel in this instance because it's a dry board.

I love threads where people acknowledge they're playing suboptimal (GETTING ABUSED) and then argue with everyone about it.

You suggest you're deep - you're not.

You say "donk off 200bbs" - why are we discussing bbs postflop? You have an SPR of just over 3 on the flop. If you're thinking about how many bbs we started the hand with you're going to get some DEEP monsters under the bed on the regular.

The insinuation that having the Ac here as a reason to make a smaller flop bet, or that it might end up being useful in our hand is absurd. Can you show a runout and potential action where it will end up making since to bluff with nut blocker this short in a hu 4b pot?

This is a pot all day long on the flop and honestly as played im snapping river too because I think you accidentally induced a lot here. What are you expecting to have in your range that checks back turn here and defends river?

I agree you're getting abused and it sounds like you'll continue to get abused in these spots. Good thing plo games are so good that most can have a decent winrate fielding punts... GL

Yeah I'm going through the content ATM... Going to check out that series after going through the HU and tournament courses I think. I think I don't mind betting 1/3rd and barreling again small on the turn honestly. And folding to a jam.

The reason to bet the flop smaller is to give yourself a better price to bet fold, and you block v's continuing range. Betting 1/2 or 2/3 I don't think gets significantly more folds than betting 1/3. Potting it is just asinine though.