Hello guys,

I played this hand tonite and I would like to know how you would have played it.

It s Omaha 5 cards.

I have 530. I am UTG+1 and there is a Mississippi straddle to 10. I have KK579ssccc and I limp to 10. One limps and Mississippi raises to 40. I 3 bet to 130. One guy calls and the original raiser call.

400 € pot and I have 400 in my stack.
Flop 488hhd
I am first to act.

Do you bet all in or do you check to see what happens vs the 2 players?

I’m no 5 card pro, but I wouldn’t 3bet pre and I’m checking this board.

I actually don't mind the backraise given you're basically 50 bb and this hand plays poorly multiway. On this flop you actually only have 21% equity 3 way vs top 10% - if one folds you would have 36%. Now both won't realize their equity so this calc isn't correct, but a starting point. My guess would be this is a jam given the SPR - I forget how to remove AA from the calc so the numbers should go up.

10%!AA if I remember correctly.

I don’t like the limp raise and probably have to check fold this flop 3 ways.

Yeh you're right with that calc. Btw ran the calc with AA excluded and your equity shoots up to 33%. Keep in mind as well when you jam they won't realize their equity some % of the time, so the value goes up.

Actually, I decided to check, CO check and BTN bets 280.
I tank folded and CO folded too.

I got shown AQhh.

As I can see, everyone has an opinion about each street xD

PF sometimes I open, sometimes I limp reraise this kind of hand.

On the flop, I think it s very close. If it is Omaha 4, I would have shoved. But in Plo 5, it s very likely one of my opponents has an 8.

Thanks for the answers btw.

I agree with this.

BTW - Just because he showed AQhh doesn't mean he didn't have an 8 as well (assuming he only showed you 2 cards ofc)

This is not true against 2 opponents. They have only 10 cards between them, out of 44 unseen to you. Even if we assume a random distribution of the two 8's, which is wrong because villains play more high cards than mid/low in this game, it's only around 41% that someone that an 8.

Work out the math for yourself. You don't get into "very likely" territory until 4 opponents.

Half the time seems to equate to very likely to me…

let's flip a coin. It's very likely you'll win.

Your friendly reminder that some words are more vague than others and mean subtly different things to different people so we have to try to remember that this is a maths game and we have to quantify things even when they don't seem easily quantifiable. If someone offered you a bet and said you were very likely to win it, only a fish would take that bet without knowing the actual odds.

One thing to note about preflop is that you are 2,3 suit. Being 2,3 suit is nowhere near as good as being xxyyz. For that reason I am comfortable raising first time around but given the limp I'd prefer to call.

As for flop I'm check/deciding. People have already commented on how often someone can have an 8 but there is also 44 (albeit not often) and some other hands like Ahhair above the 8. So I dont think you get it through based on FE alone. When you get called by an 8 your ****ed and when called by another hand your prob <50%. Seems real borderline so I'd like to check and see what develops.

I'm not sure exactly of the process but a lot of people overestimate how much the extra card of the same suit hurts you. It's not that big of a deal and is certainly not enough to swing a decision from an easy raise to not a raise. Though regardless it's not strong enough for a limp-reraise, of course, nor should that weapon even be one we generally use.

Takes it from an 8% hand to a 6% hand. I'd call that significant

Is that on the 6-max hand rankings or the full ring

You are way off. - or you are not describing it in an appropiate way.

When comparing 2 cards to a flush vs 3 cards to a flush in PLO or PLO5 first you compare the difference in raw equity pre-flop between the 2 hands. Ex. (Kq)kj and (kqj)k.

So with 3 to a flush this hand goes from roughly a 64% favorite to 63% favorite vs a random hand.

In multiway pots, you might have a hand go from 35% to 34% in a 3-way pot or 21.5% to 20.5% in a 4 way pot. It isn't always 1% but its normally not going to be too much more than that.



Having 3 to a suit matters a lot more when calculating our equity for flush draws because we have less outs. This can be a lot more damaging to our overall equity than one realizes.

Wazz is right that the 3rd suit here is really not a big deal and unlikely to evaluate how we evaluate the hand pre-flop on this action.

It's still a good raise or overlimp against a limp, and its still a bad limp-reraise. The 3rd card to a flush is immaterial in that sense

Having 3 cards to a suit is not unusual in a 5c game. Evaluating pre-flop hand strength is a key ability in omaha and i recommend using an upgrade/downgrade system to better categorize hands in a particular bucket.

Just to clarify, my vote is to raise first time round and not limp reraise. But given limp id call this hand but would be comfortable reraising xxyyz

Not sure i get what people are trying to say about the suits, that 2,3 suit is no big deal compared to xxyyz? I think its significant because of the playability and equity realisation. Using raw equity not the best measure imo

Yes, 2,3 suit is no big deal, particularly when the 3 suit is the lower high card. Raw equity is in part made up by playability. It's trendy amongst unthinking nits to find excuses not to play a hand, when in truth it doesn't amount to enough of a reason not to play the hand. You're not an unthinking nit, are you?

Yes, that is exactly what wazz and I are saying - its not a big deal and the pre-flop equity differences are relatively minute.

In NL hold em AKss and AKo are both big hands. AKs is better, but we are still going to play it the same way pre-flop as AKo in a lot of situations.

PLO5 and hold em are very different games, but we aren't playing kkxxx because of its flush potential, we care so much more about having the second largest pair possible in hand.

That you value 2 to a suit more than 3 of a suit is still correct, but you may be overvaluing the importance of a minor defect. That's fine too - play how you want - we are just trying to point out there might be more +ev on the table than you appreciate.


Edit: sick xpost

I'm trying to relate this PLO5 vs PLO4 where xxxy vs xxyy or even xxyw changes a hand from unplayable to playable and from calling to 3-betting. In four card I think about it as categories and order those categories as: xxyy >> xxyw > xxxy > xywz. I do sort of get why xxyyw is only >~ xxyyy though.

It's an interesting discussion.

Guys im not suggesting a fold lol

Why did you think we were? As far as I can tell we're not even discussing the relative merits of limping vs raising, we're just discussing how much of a handicap the third card of a suit is

To quantify the difference I looked a GTO pre-flop site that I use and just plugged this hand in as the UTG open, so this is with regular blinds, no straddle, and first to open UTG:

K9x K7y 5w is the best at 0.19 EV
K97x K5y = 0.02
K9x Kw 75y = -0.05
K9x k75wyz = -.15

so, it depends on the suitedness exactly, but the relative difference between a pure double suited vs the double suited with trip is about the same as the difference between the trip suited and a single suited hand. I think this shows that the difference is not minor and that it takes it from a good opening hand down to just a breakeven hand.

While this is a useful reference point, this is far from an apple to apples comparison.

That both xxyyz and xxyyy are positive ev should translate to larger EV gains in the situation OP described

I don't think anyone is arguing kk975 is an amazing hand - I think wazz and I are suggesting the playability is barely changed or not changed enough to influence our pre-flop strategy. Profitability and playability are not the same thing, for me at least. 3 cards to a flush is also not always a negative for playability, we can remove 1 additional nut out against bigger draw. And especially in 5c paying off with 2nd nut flush will be a mistake more often than 4c - so the effective playing differences can be trickier to evaluate than appears at first glance.

Finally, I don't really care too much if Hero chooses to overlimp vs raise pre. Hero can take many more exploitative lines with marginal hands in live settings, and this hand can have high upside whether it is xxyyz or xxyyy.