Comments on this hand welcomed:

Playing live $30 PLO Bomb Pots
Villain is $12K deep
Hero covers
8 handed

Villain is a solid reg. He doesn't need the nuts to put money in.

Preflop pot $240

Flop is:

5h 5d Jc
2c 2s 3s

Hero has 9s 9c 5d 2h

checks to Hero in LP: bet $100
Villain in EP raises to $500
Hero calls

pot is $1240

Turn:

5h 5d Jc 2d
2c 2s 3s 6h

Villain bets $1240
Hero calls $1240

pot is $3720

River:

5h 5d Jc 2d 9d
2c 2s 3s 6h 8s

Villain checks
Hero bets $3720

Any comments on the actions taken or bet sizing? Mainly the flop and turn play, and river sizing.

I don't play db but seems good to me... Wondering if you potted river because of the spade on bottom so villain would be thinking that he should be able to chop the pot with flush on bottom? Unsure why he'd check in that scenario though. Maybe villain had nothing in this hand. Maybe raise flop back to 1500.

There isn’t much information on double board poker, therefore let me throw some ideas out there and see if you get what I’m trying to say and why.

#1 First off let me make the distinction between Bomb Pot Double Board where everyone goes to the flop versus Double Board where there is preflop action. This appears to be a Bomb Pot where every players puts in the $30 and there is no preflop action and it is on to the flop. In a Bomb Pot no fold’em everyone on to the flop game with 8 players means you are up against seven players and their 28 cards. And no hands including low cards can be discounted because there was no preflop action, players can have any four cards. Those 28 cards in your opponent's hands means that the nuts and near nuts are relevant on the flop. You should have checked the flop. Don’t build pots without extremely strong hands on at least one board.

Your two hands of trips with no high kicker are total trash hands.

#2 You called the villain a solid reg. This Bomb Pot Double Board was eight handed. Your solid reg villain just check-raised the flop eight handed. As I already mentioned flop ranges in Bomb Pot Double Board are very strong. You have to play the villain to have the nuts or near nuts to have check-raised here. You block quads on both boards, therefore you are most likely staring at the nut full house on at least one board. And this technique of flop check-raising out of position is one of the key skills to learn in this type of game.

#3 Double Board is a scooping game. I would not have gotten to the river the way you did or for that size of a pot, but as played you probably have to bet the pot and hope he folds a bottom board that had you beat and you instead scoop the entire pot by him folding. If you get raised on the river you are screwed because you played the flop poorly in my opinion by bloating the pot on the flop with two weak holdings.

#4 Since Bomb Pots don’t have preflop action, there is no preflop aggressor. I guess this means on the flop we are technically not using terms like c-betting, donk betting, leading, etc. Therefore, how you want to describe betting on the flop is up to you, but you better only be doing it in position. And it becomes a sizing question. And since we are talking Bomb Pot which are going to be multi-way, on the flop I would bet in position in a multiway pot at a low SPR with a bet 20% pot, medium SPR with a bet 33% pot and in high SPR anywhere from bet 50% pot to full pot. And that is when I bet, but I would not have bet this flop.

Looks good. We can consider tight fold to xr on flop since villain most likely holding is a2 or a5 and it is hard for Hero to improve/scoop especially with pair in hand.

Strongly prefer turn call.

River we can consider medium sizings as well, hard to know how often this villain will call down with a2/a5/other hands with trips on 1 board.

I agree with Monikrazy that villian having A5/A2 is a likely holding. And for anyone not catching the reason, it is because the Ace is doing double duty as the best kicker on Board 1 and the best kicker on Board 2. You are only dealt four cards. Having a card, an Ace in this particular hand, that can do double duty in double board increases the likelihood of someone playing their hand strongly. And in my original post I mentioned nuts and near nuts. Trips with the best kicker is the bottom of the near nuts range here.

I agree with Monikrazy with the turn as played being a check. But, and it is a big but, I would have never played the flop as played, therefore this turn play is kind of a wash.

I strongly disagree with everything else Monikrazy wrote. This a good thing and shows PLO even in 2022 has room for style play.

Note I changed the 5d on the board to 5c because it can't be in two places.

Like 52 seems pretty strong here on both boards, so I don't see how we don't bet flop. The raise sucks as I doubt we want to get 12k into a $200 pot with many hands (even though ones with a 5 and a 2 seem more likely) ... but HU vs. nutty ranges we are doing pretty well even with the 99 pair:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 5 5 J

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s 9c 5d 2h	45.30%	264,589	14,455
(JJ,52,66,A45)	54.70%	320,956	14,455

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 2 2 3

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s 9c 5d 2h	65.89%	388,252	14,195
(JJ,52,66,A45)	34.11%	197,553	14,195

...and if villain is doing this with either just A5/A2/45 we are further in front.

Turn we gain 15% on the top with 2d, but lose 25% with the 6h.

River we gain 13% on the top with 9d, and lose 11% on the bottom with the 8s.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

9,107 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 5 5 J 2 9

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s 9c 5d 2h	73.87%	6,727	0
(JJ,52,66,A45)	26.13%	2,380	0

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

10,959 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 2 2 3 6 8

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s 9c 5d 2h	31.04%	3,386	31
(JJ,52,66,A45)	68.96%	7,542	31

...maybe we can bluff bottom board straight/flushes out, but we've lost equity ~7% from the flop and might have to put all of it in because I think we have to call a x/r. Also can't see many hands that x/r flop and have a flush on the river on bottom that want to fold.


For wider ranges, we are further ahead on the flop but further behind on the river:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 5 5 J

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s 9c 5d 2h	57.79%	344,575	4,325
(JJ,A5,A2,66,45)	42.21%	251,100	4,325

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 2 2 3

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s 9c 5d 2h	64.72%	384,608	7,431
(JJ,A5,A2,66,45)	35.28%	207,961	7,431

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

17,947 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 5 5 J 2 9

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s 9c 5d 2h	86.74%	15,567	0
(JJ,A5,A2,66,45)	13.26%	2,380	0

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

17,395 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 2 2 3 6 8

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s 9c 5d 2h	19.55%	3,386	31
(JJ,52,66,45)	80.45%	13,978	31

https://upswingpoker.com/double-board-plo-bomb-pots/

I was being polite in saying there is room for style play. You guys are breaking Tip #2 big time. And I quote, "You want to be able to almost always win at least one of the two boards." Three posters other than me and all of you are thinking trips with no kicker is good when I called it trash. You are not almost always winning with trips and no kicker on this flop. And the sims posted proved you are not almost always winning, therefore it is a flop check.

Tip #2 – You don’t want to play middling combinations on both boards

Trips with no kicker is the very definition of middling on these boards and this hand.

(illiterat, you used 66 instead of 33 on your flop sim. The flop nuts or near nuts on flop contains 33 on the bottom board.)

The sims with villian having the nuts or near nuts has Hero behind not ahead. You guys broke Tip # 2 big time betting here on the flop. And that kind of mistake will see a $240 pot before flop play become a $3750 pot before river play. This is a huge error to bloat this flop. Double board is a scooping game. You scoop mostly with nut flushes on non-paired board and quarter people with nut straight and something strong on the other board on non-paired, non-flush board. Trying to thread the needle and make a lot of money with trips and no kicker is not how double board is played.

---

Link Tip #1 said never bet out of position, instead check-raise. And this tip talk about the ranges being "competitve." I talked about being up against seven players and their 28 cards. That is 28 cards, that is more than half the deck. You need a very strong hand in position as the button to bet and you need a very strong hand out of position to check-raise eight handed. Villain was describe as a strong reg. If villain knows how to play double board, then he knows this Tip #1 and is check-raising with a very strong hand.

---

Link Tip #3 on disjointed boards, you have to bet big to scoop. I disagree with Monikrazy's suggestion of a river medium sized bet.

Dead cards change the values a lot. Gah, and the 33 flop problem makes flop much worse:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 5 5 J

dead cards: 2 2 3

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s 9c 5d 2h	37.49%	223,172	3,523
(JJ,52,33,A45)	62.51%	373,305	3,523

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 2 2 3

dead cards: 5 5 J

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s 9c 5d 2h	43.17%	256,803	4,411
(JJ,52,33,A45)	56.83%	338,786	4,411

...and on river:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

4,143 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 5 5 J 2 9

dead cards: 2 2 3 6 8

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s 9c 5d 2h	56.07%	2,323	0
(JJ,52,33,A45)	43.93%	1,820	0

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

4,143 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 2 2 3 6 8

dead cards: 5 5 J 2 9

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s 9c 5d 2h	30.65%	1,270	0
(JJ,52,33,A45)	69.35%	2,873	0

...so going to go with don't bluff river, and flop is worse than I thought so checking might be better ... still not sure though given there's a lot of value in getting rid of higher pairs on the flop.

Now there you go with the flop sim, betting that flop is a huge mistake. You guys broke Tip #2 big time.

So how would you make good money in db plo? What's some good hands. I guess straights and flushes are more valuable.. maybe? Prob sound stupid

The nuts or near nuts is key.

Having the nut flush on a non-paired board, especially one also without a straight flush, is key. If you have the nuts on one board and several players are contending for the other board, then those players are all paying you off. Those multiple players are contributing bets that half of which will be going to you.

If you have the nut straight on a non-paired, non-flush board and you also have a quality hand on the other board, then you are in a position to quarter everyone still in the hand. It is important to note that if you have the nut straight on a non-paired, non-flush board, but have nothing on the other board, then you are at risk of chopping with your straight which would have you getting quartered. You have to understand when to build a pot because you are in good shape to quarter people and when not to build a pot because you are the one at risk of getting quartered. And as another thread discussed showed, you might even need to fold the nut straight when there is a lot of bets going in because you are getting quartered for a lot of money. Better to fold your $25 invested than to see it go pot raise behind you and then another pot raise behind you. Your nut straight is getting quartered there.

Knowing when to bet big on the river. Double board is a scooping game. As tip #3 in th link I posted showed. If the two boards are disconnected, then you are inclined to bet larger to try and get you opponnet to fold. This is especially true if heads up and checked to on the river in an attempt to get the other person to fold a board or both boards that would have beat you. On the river position is massive heads up or even three-way. Your opponnents are going to be force to fold a lot of their weak hands that if it got checked through would have won on a board or two. You force them to fold by betting big in the correct spots, like when the boards are discounted and therefore their cards can't do double duty and be used on both boards.

Anyone with a background in other split pot games would probably do well right from the start with a lot of these concepts. You could take a PLO high low crusher and have them play PLO high only double board for the first time in their life and they would probably be the best player at the table in a game they had never played before. They would understand quartering. They would understand when to push players out of a pot and when to pull players along in the pot.

Bomb Pot Double Board at a full table of eight playrs has you on the flop against seven players and their 28 cards. That is more than half the deck in the hands of your seven opponnets. This is a nuts or near nut flop game. Seriously, you don't even have to run sims for the flop. On the flop you simply have to ask yourself do you have the nuts or near nuts on at least one board. If the answer is no, then there is no way in hell you should be betting the flop in Bomb Pot Double Board PLO.

Ty it prob. Highly skilled betting with the quarters I didn't even think about that untill read your post. I guess the higher skilled players try to quarter and play for an occasional scoop.

I'm with Wolfbook here. Your hand looks better than it is because you hit both boards pretty well. The problem in DB bomb pots is that in this spot you can find yourself beat on both boards since you're up against multiple opponents.

Luckily you're just headsup against one opponent as we progress, so it somewhat increases the chances that you'll win at least one of the boards. But as Wolf stated, this opponent checkraised the flop, so it's likely he's VERY strong on at least one of the boards.

If he has Jacks full on the top board and then the spade draw on the bottom board you're getting freerolled practically. You want to be the one doing the freerolling, and I know it can LOOK like we're strong since we hit both boards, but you can still find yourself in a world of hurt in spots like this unfortunately.

I think there are a lot of ideas from hi/lo split pot games that carry over well, for instance how your strategy can change a lot depending on how many people you are against ... and understanding how the nut flush is often better than the nut full house (nobody else can also have it -- which is even more true of nut straights). But I think it's non-trivially different.

The "tips" are geared towards understanding that, but they aren't rules ... like if we bet this flop and get 4 callers then our hand is mostly trash, but when we get one caller it's not trash (because with 4 callers it's easy to have 2 different people with nuts on a single board, but against a single person it's difficult for them to have both boards covered).


Hero is in LP here, so it's not like we are leading UTG or something and I still think we have to bet here. Villain x/r from EP is good with a lot of hands we are doing fine against on at least one board, and as above we have ok equity vs. nutty hands ... and when it gets HU and we have both boards covered folding is difficult.

As I've said in other DB bomb pot hands, it's going to be very high variance so there's a lot of opportunities to do the right thing and lose.

I agree that headsup this is a much better spot than multiway. Nevertheless, our side cards are trashy and while I may not want to be folding this hand headsup, I also don't want to be bloating the pot a bunch either, especially against a player who is fairly competent.

It’s absolutely fine imo to bet in LP with this

But can exercise the caution at the time of the c/r and take a possible early exit

Some good discussion in this thread.

I agree that even trips on both board is a marginal bet, because we have no blockers against higher boats, 99 makes it harder to fill up and we are dead to jjxx on one board.

But making small bets from late position on dry boards tends to be extremely powerful, especially when most of the table is unlikely to be playing correct strategy.

40% psb is quite reasonable in this situation - the combination of 2 board playability and favorable position (sometimes) against other trips makes this an acceptable risk with positive implied odds (to overperform our equity/outplay opponents). While our hand is not easy to play, any opponents with trips may be similarly challenged.

If we were at a table of only expert plo players, I would probably not recommend this same line.

Don’t understand the need to check, only have to fade a few hands like Jj, 33, a45 that checked from up front. Most of time just win a tiny pot or chop versus another caller

Be careful talking about 'dry boards' in bomb pots. Dry boards are ones that players are unlikely to connect with because the hands that do connect with them are garbage and have been folded. This doesn't happen in bomb pots.

40% of the time, both the case 2 and case 5 are in our opponents hands. Only 14% of the time are both still in the stub, and some of that time our villains have a boat. most random 2's and 5's are ahead of us. Getting checkraised here is a disaster.

Scotch said "Most of time just win a tiny pot or chop versus another caller". This is mostly right, but the other times were are losing all our chips way more often than scooping. Check flop and get to showdown as cheap as possible unless we make a real hand on one board.

No getting checkraised is not a disaster, you just fold. Easy game. I hope you are not including me in your "other times we are losing all of our chips" lol

Assuming your math is correct, there's 46% just one of the 2 and 5 are out, that's usually a small freeroll for you. Potential combos like JJ, 33, A45 out there too but with one caller you are usually ok.

I like to put the bet on the flop. I see no reason to let a random higher pair like 77 bink or let a flush draw get there, hands that probably would have folded. Unless you plan on always folding to a small single bet on the turn you bet the flop.

Bet-Folding is a horrible choice of lines to take. This is Double Board, the check-raiser could simply be strong on one board. And in this particular hand the check-raise made it heads up back to you. You bet-folding heads-up on the flop in Double Board when you have trips on both boards is setting money on fire. Position has many advantages. One of the them is checking-back.

The flop is the first betting round in Bomb Pot Double board. With everyone seeing the flop and you up against more than half the deck, the flop is played extremely tight. Some of you are stubbornly not getting how this particular game is played. Furthermore, some of you are also stubbornly trying to dance between the raindrops and give one way of playing and then say something like, "if the players are good then I wouldn't play the way I just suggested."

Bomb Pot Double Board doesn't give you enough room to play the flop poorly against seven opponents holding more than half the decks cards.

I'm calling out anyone that makes a post in a Bomb Pot thread and they say something like, "here is my advice, but if the players are good, then I'd play it differently."

That is a load of ****.

In Hold'em a bad player might go to the flop with 72 off suit. But in Bomb Pot everyone, including the good players, go to the flop with 72 offsuit. You can't separate good and bad players with regards to Bomb Pot flop play.

Anyone making a post saying they would play it differently against good players doesn't understand Bomb Pot flop play or is being disingenuous.

Let's not get too dramatic with the lighting money on fire, a 35-40% pot bet is like 3 "antes".

I've heard all the counter arguments and still 100% fine with the line. It's surely better than checking flop and calling a turn bet when the universe of hands that beat us went up and we have very little way to improve

Getting c/R here when you have two sets is not common, there might be around 25%(?) chance the JJ,33,A45,J5,23 combos are out there and that's assuming they checked them. And just because some upswing article came out saying you should always check from upfront doesn't mean people are doing it.

I mean a 35-40% pot bet really doesn't have to win that often to be profitable. You have your "blockers" and it may even be profitable if that is the only money you put unless you boat or quad up. The fact that it checked to you increases your odds

You don't know how the Bomb Pot Double Board is played.

Is that less dramatic enough for you?

I edited out most of your junk. But your last sentence is pure gold insanity. It's like you didn't even read the Upswing Poker link I posted by Weisman.

The fact that is was checked to you means nothing !!!

The proper play in Bomb Pot Double Board out of position is to use a check-raise strategy.

ScotchOnTheRocks, I suggest you put the scotch on the rocks down and wait until you are sober to make your next post.

The PLO forum is doom. I made long posts in this thread and I made a long post today in a AA thread. I have better things to do with my time. I'll let the rest of you guys deal with this ****.

OP, I hope you know which 3 or 4 posters gave you good advice in this thread.