Aa23 ds hearts/spades. unsure of position in the hand. Called a raise pre to 10bbs. Stack is 185bbs.. large stack raised and a short stack 50bbs called.
Flop was q105 two hearts. Short stack first to act shoves large stack calls 40bbs I'm sitting on 175 bbs my initial reaction was to call and gii on safe turns. Out him on q or 10 with fd than second caliber hand like plus straight draw.
I shoved and he debated for a short while and called. Turn was another 10 and river k giving him the straight.
My question is is it better to just call the flop on this hand?
Position is usually going to be so important that the HH discussion isn't worth having without it.
Seems like you think you can play this for overpair value, where you say 'get it in on a safe turn' where the only truly safe turn is hitting a non-pairing heart. A lot of assumptions in your thinking you should spell out so the mistakes can be identified.
Why is that the only safe turn? I feel as though a run down/hand I said is most likely. Unsure what you mean by assuming.
Because KQJT is as reasonable a hand as AKQJ and is beating you on the turn unless the flush hits or the bottom card pairs. You are assuming you are currently ahead.
I like side pots since I can get my chips back if I lose the Main. But I don't like to GII here since you are only called by better and strong holdings like the one that you ran into. So I might min-click it back and hope I don't have to sigh-call-off to a shove.
An all-in Player can't fold. If you commit to shoving the Turn you can get holdings to fold and then see what happens in the Main.
IMO hitting a set is not a 'great' thing, so you are only looking at hearts and wheel cards to improve and 6 or 7 as 'safe'.
You can flat and get that safe Turn .. but you get no Side pot when the other Player folds to your Turn bet when they don't improve.
Yes, these are the marginal spots in PLO where you can discuss the merits of each option (except fold) here.
1A) If you shove and get a fold, then you have the right price to hit hearts or BD something in the Main that now has dead money in it.
1B) If you shove you are probably the slight dawg in a =EV flip .. are you into flipping for 145bb?
2A) If you flat and the Turn hits the Board .. you have to fold
2B) If you flat and the Turn helps you, you may fold out V and get nothing from Side .. and still lose the Main
2C) If you flat and the Turn helps you, you may be a big dawg going to the River with bad or break even pot odds
3A) If you min-click and the Turn hits the Board .. you have to fold
3B) If you min-click and the Turn helps you, you may win side .. and break even overall
3C) If you min-click and the Turn helps you, You may be a big dawg going to the River, but with much better Pot Odds
3D) If you min-click and get shoved on .. see 1B above
Is there a right or wrong play? Not in my 'book' and I think the Solvers would be a mixed bag as well. Is there any hope that 'large stack' will 'allow' this to check thru to Showdown? Player tendencies can play a big role in how you choose your actions. GL
I'm looking at ranges .. you're looking at an exact holding that looks great (and will call off) but you have mostly crippled. How do you sit against KQJ9? Probably 55-45 and then 'if the Turn hits the Board' will apply as above and then you are looking at 30-70 dawg going to River.
And then you also have to consider 2pr/set possibilities, of which you don't block.
I know I'm a little different in thoughts. I like leaving the door open to folds, but I also want some return on my Main Pot investment. So that's why I give V a chance to make 'another' bad call before we see another card .. and then let them fold when they brick the Turn so I can freeroll the Main Pot.
When I see your spot and think about shoving, all I can think about is folding out hands that I have crushed and having the short stack turn over TT. GL
I understand and am thankful for your thoughts it helped me because I need to pay more attention to player tendencies like you said... But this hand in particular how the game was going I just feel a stronger hand would've reraised the short stack to me a good 60 percent of the time or higher. But thank you I appreciate your thoughts I was just wondering if a call would be better if it is what it is in this exact situation as I described.
It was micro stakes as well in a more serious game with better opponents I guess everything changes than about the hand and it's hard to decipher but in a similar situation in higher stakes I'd consider folding all things considered maybe 15percent of the time but on this hand it was basically call or shove
From my experience a PF raiser who has been Donked into will not re-raise here very often .. more chips in the pot. They already know that they are taking on the short stack in the Main so why not create some reverse Pot Odds on their call by trying to get the trail to also call? This is NOT the approach that I have as I typically like to start that Side pot as soon as I can.
I know not what happens in micros .. but I will say, IMO, that a shove looks weaker than a call or min-raise .. to me and what I've seen in my sessions. Shoves are 'go away' bets as opposed to 'value'.
Good hand to bring here .. have fun and run well .. GL
My question was call or raise based on the hand not what you think he had. He also had the second caliber hand I put him on so not really getting the point of what your trying to say here... ��
Shoving by default most of the time - villain has too many worse 1p and draw hands in range we want to punish and even if we run into a good 2p or set its not a disaster.
