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Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37?

09-24-2023 , 02:44 PM
5-5

BTN straddles. LAG calls SB. LAG calls BB. Nit limps EP. I call MP with Ks Tc 9h 8s. HJ calls. CO calls. BTN checks.

Flop Kh Ts 3h

Everyone checks. (Maybe I should bet. I have no idea how to play two pair OOP on multi-way drawy boards.)

Turn 7s

SB pots for 70 (he tends to bet too light in small pots). BB calls. Nit folds. Weíre 3k deep. Everyone behind me is 1k deep.

Call or raise?
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-24-2023 , 03:23 PM
I prefer raising turn as played. And also betting flop.
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-24-2023 , 04:07 PM
Bet flop. Raise turn, and call a x/r. Pretty trivial. You have position so have lots of leverage on rivers.
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-24-2023 , 11:04 PM
i am probably betting this flop, but i do think that mixing in some checks with top 2 in this scenario can make you harder to play against.

this is a nearly perfect turn card for your hand, making it a mandatory raise at this point. nobody behind you should ever be checking flop with a hand that currently beats you, other than the occasional 77. even if you randomly get jammed on by one of the shorter stacks behind you, you can call off. BB should never be ahead of you after flatting the SB lead. SB can occasionally have a set that whiffed on a flop x/r, but based on the player description, he has way too many hands we are beating or even dominating, say like T876 with bad spades, etc. you have to charge heart draws and bigger straight draws, and will likely buy yourself the chance to act last on the river.
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-25-2023 , 07:40 AM
Checking back top two can indeed make you harder to play against but it comes at the cost of some short term ev that we're leaving on the table. While awareness of image is particularly important in live games, it's better to be reactive to the image we have than proactively try to create an image.
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-26-2023 , 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wazz
Checking back top two can indeed make you harder to play against but it comes at the cost of some short term ev that we're leaving on the table. While awareness of image is particularly important in live games, it's better to be reactive to the image we have than proactively try to create an image.
i don't disagree re: how to approach image in live play, but also don't think you do this just for image. on the flop, we are still OOP to 3 players on a connected board where we don't really have the main draws. this is one of the less favorable top 2 pair hand / situation combos that we will find ourselves in. a lot of very bad cards that can come on the turn and, depending on game dynamics, easy to put ourselves in a spot with a bloated multiway pot, deep, possibly OOP, with few opportunities to improve. i think there is merit to sometimes checking here, not as a primary play but for occasional deception, pot control and range protection.
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-26-2023 , 01:03 PM
How do we know the image created though. That's an assumption.
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-26-2023 , 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntheFold
How do we know the image created though. That's an assumption.
you're right, it's literally impossible to tell what other players at the table think about your play. like, how would you even begin to ascertain such a thing.
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-26-2023 , 10:43 PM
No ham.. I meant how do we assume the image created was as the context of wazzz comment implied. Protecting an image that is stable.. leads naturally to more solid play as your decisions are tied to an image which isn't spew. Vital for a poker player who plays for a living. This although separate from my reply to you but dealing with the second thing I said means reacting to an image sets up a reality where you can tilt more... Just because it's harder to do.
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-27-2023 , 05:13 AM
Raise now because if you hit one of your draw, the SB is probably going to stop betting (unless he also hits)
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-27-2023 , 10:34 AM
Definitely one of those 'feel' spots. We've got a pretty decent hand with a few nut Rivers (As,Kx,6x no heart and most likely the T) but I've been more conservative in these types of 'free card' spots lately and had more positive results .. certainly could just be variance.

I could go either way on Flop .. I tend to check more with a flush draw out there and then pile on the Turn if it misses.

How often do we expect SB to 3b our raise?
How often do we expect BB to fold if SB flats our raise?

If we raise to 'just' 200, then a pot bet by SB will be 740, which is an amount I can live with going to the River with 2200 behind. The issue would be if BB jams we most certainly lose our flush draw and are down to just 4 clean outs .. KK66, prob TT too.

If we flat then we are in position to evaluate River action and either call, raise or even fold without denting the stack too much.

It probably comes down to whether or not I expect BB to fold out closing action. If not, then I'll just wait for them to hang themselves on the River with lessor holdings rather than allow them to play perfect on the River when I raise and bloat the pot. With LAGs we should either be able to call off or get called on good Rivers.

There's a lot of sentiment that this is an easy Turn raise, but if we drag along two other Players then lots of Rivers make this a sticky spot. I deal with plenty of PF LAGs in our pool, but once the Flop comes out most turn into nut pedaling TAGs .. so you have to make a choice hand to hand as to whether you need to get your value now on the Turn or if you'll get paid off on the River enough. GL
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-27-2023 , 01:11 PM
Guys, I am so sorry! I mistyped my hand. The 8 in my hand is not 8s but 8c. My hand is Ks Tc 9h 8c (I probably would've raised pre if I was suited to the K).

So I don't have a K-high flush draw in this hand. I still have top two pair and the low open-ended draw on a board of—

Kh Ts 3h 7s

I understand this makes my hand quite a bit weaker on the turn. Again, I'm so sorry!

I feel like I should still raise the turn though because SB tends to bet too light. I'm slightly concerned by the pot-sized bet even though it's a limped pot.
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-28-2023 , 10:47 AM
Without the potential flush draw outs I'm going to flat here a lot. In my Player Pool I'd be more worried about BB than SB with the assumption that BB has same read on SB image.

Raising still comes back to our read on the SB and/or BB willingness to fold 'often' and I'm not so sure we're in a position to call off once we dump in $200 unless it's to SB only for that $700ish price

Raising is to deny equity and this Board reeks of combo str/flush/boat draws that either or both of these Players may hold. We want this to go HU or take it down, but I just think we're bloating the pot with not a lot of insurance in our pocket and really just allowing V to reap the benefits of their draws that we wont pay off normally.

Sure, we'll fade (or improve) and pull in a decent pot some of the time, but is it 33% of the time? And what's the EV over that 33% .. ?

I'm just saying we can 'safely' put in $70 with a decent holding or we'll end up putting in $700ish and hoping we fade being behind (33/77) or any of the 4,5,6,8,9,J,Q,A or flush cards that hit the SB 'bad' holdings or the BB laying in the weeks holdings. GL
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-29-2023 , 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20
Without the potential flush draw outs I'm going to flat here a lot. In my Player Pool I'd be more worried about BB than SB with the assumption that BB has same read on SB image.

Raising still comes back to our read on the SB and/or BB willingness to fold 'often' and I'm not so sure we're in a position to call off once we dump in $200 unless it's to SB only for that $700ish price

Raising is to deny equity and this Board reeks of combo str/flush/boat draws that either or both of these Players may hold. We want this to go HU or take it down, but I just think we're bloating the pot with not a lot of insurance in our pocket and really just allowing V to reap the benefits of their draws that we wont pay off normally.

Sure, we'll fade (or improve) and pull in a decent pot some of the time, but is it 33% of the time? And what's the EV over that 33% .. ?

I'm just saying we can 'safely' put in $70 with a decent holding or we'll end up putting in $700ish and hoping we fade being behind (33/77) or any of the 4,5,6,8,9,J,Q,A or flush cards that hit the SB 'bad' holdings or the BB laying in the weeks holdings. GL
SB and BB are both 3k deep. I think I like raising to 250, folding if either re-raises. But I don't dislike calling.

Their ranges are so wide. We're in position. Combo draws go down in value quite a bit on the turn. And I don't think they're re-raising with less than the case KK, the case TT, and maybe AQJhh or AQJss.
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
09-29-2023 , 04:54 PM
Cmon man you raise this hand he don't got nuttn what's the deep analysis mumbo jumbo for
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote
10-05-2023 , 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigoilboomer
I feel like I should still raise the turn though because SB tends to bet too light. I'm slightly concerned by the pot-sized bet even though it's a limped pot.
If SB's bet is simultaneously looking weak + strong, that sounds like he is polarized: we either dominate him or vice versa

So what does raising accomplish against SB? Is your table image so bad that he will call out of position with a worse hand? It feels like most of the time you will fold out hands you hope will bluff on the river, and value-own yourself while dominated.

BB being in the hand complicates things. Why is LAG #2 calling out of position? His hand smells very speculative: open-ended, middle flush draw, low 2p.

So I would be inclined to raise-fold not because of SB, but because against both villains together there is enough draw potential we want to deny equity.
Call or Raise with KT98 on KT37? Quote

      
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