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BTN vs BB - Middle set BTN vs BB - Middle set

11-04-2023 , 11:29 AM
Just a checkup 2/5 NL

Villain is a good player. They tend to donk with nutted hands mostly.

Hero has 100BB
Villain has 105BB
Preflop: Hero has 7 7 5 3
3 folds to hero, we pot to 3.4BB, Sb calls, BB calls

Flop: T 7 3
sb checks, BB pots 10.2BB, Hero raises to 30.3BB, SB folds, BB shoves, hero?

Standard?
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-04-2023 , 03:42 PM
I might not always re-pot flop but we are obviously stacking off here for 100bb.
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-04-2023 , 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhatPots
Preflop: Hero on BU has 7 7 5 3
Most players on the button are open raising around 50% give or take a couple of percent. This single suited hand doesn't make my top 50% BU open raising range, but if the 3 was a 4 it would (or if your hand was double suited it would).

As played, on the flop you are looking at a flop where the T and 7 make straight draws, the 7 and 3 make straight draws, and the 7 and 3 make a flush draw. Against more than one opponent on a board with that many draws and you having ultimate position I would call the flop and re-evaluate on the turn. Remember you are the preflop raiser and it is a multiway pot and still someone else is betting pot into you. Let them now have the initiative. If the turn brings in both a straight and a flush, then it is possible for you to potentially get away from the hand if an opponent bets too large on the turn. Being in position is a beautiful thing.

Last edited by wolfbook; 11-04-2023 at 04:44 PM.
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-04-2023 , 11:35 PM
Worst hand I expect to see is overpair and spades and I think a lot of the time it’s a monster wrap+fd. 100bb is fine to pile in but I do think there is a case for trying to get it in on turn bricks instead.
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-05-2023 , 08:17 AM
You cannot raise and then fold, not at this stack depth. Not on a board with draws on it. Raise and call, or just call the first time round. If each card were ~ 3 ranks higher, then there's more of a case for raise/fold as top set becomes a bigger part of their range, but a huge amount of TT is getting folded pre.
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-06-2023 , 07:09 AM
what is the GTO donking range from BB?
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-06-2023 , 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuo
What is the GTO donking range from BB?

Excellent and interesting question that shows the huge difference between how the the small blind and big blind play preflop and postflop. Below are some average numbers that might change several percentage points depending of your stake and rake structure.

Preflop: Hero open raises on the button and the small blind should 3-bet about 10% and cold-call about 3%. Afterwards, the big blind should also 3-bet about 10% however even though the small blind and big blind both are 3-betting about 10% here, the big blind who as already put in a bigger blind preflop and is closing the action will cold-call a lot more than the small blind's 3% and instead the big blind will cold-call about 20%. So SB and BB have about same 3-betting range but huge difference in cold-calling range.

Postflop: Since neither the small blind or big blind 3-bet preflop that means they don't have their strongest hands. But the SB only had a very tight preflop 3% cold calling range and is out of position to two player. A lot of players in real world situation donk-bet here 0% of the time and instead prefer to check-raise. So when you talk GTO or some computer solver output, if you don't also recognize what real world humans are doing you will get it wrong in one direction or another. So in SB real world humans often only use the betting tool of check-raising and not donk-betting here. But GTO will have the SB donk-betting anywhere from 5-10% depending on stakes and rake so split the difference and say SB donk-bets about 7.5%. Now while the SB had a preflop 3% cold-calling range, the BB had a lot larger about 20% cold-calling range. With the SB having already checked postflop the BB should be donk-betting a T73 board a lot. If the BB has some courage and skill, the BB should be donk-betting this T73 board about 1/3 of the time. You read that crap right the BB should be donk-betting about 35% of the time. LOL. Strange but true.
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-06-2023 , 05:31 PM
If it's a NL game why are people betting the pot for odd amounts?
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-06-2023 , 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Sagebrush
If it's a NL game why are people betting the pot for odd amounts?
NLO games have maniacs using the all-in bet often, but a lot of regular players, after getting burned once or twice, reserve an all-in bet for AAxx preflop or the nuts postflop.
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-08-2023 , 11:35 AM
Apologies, I don't know why I put NL. It's PLO. I had a brain fart. Use to posting NL Holdem hands
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-08-2023 , 01:25 PM
You're blocking a spade and straight card .. good
You're blocking a FH out .. bad

As I've stated in another post today .. I like to just x/c here and then hopefully bet/raise blank on Turn for more equity denial. I also don't mind if SB comes along on the cheap or let them x/r themselves so we can GII for stacks instead of 1/2 stacks.

This may not apply to your game, but I'm not a big RIT guy, so I really don't mind controlling my variance via pot control OTF. I make a few extra exploitable folds here and there but I guess I'm just 'over' tossing around 100bb every other hand. GL
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-08-2023 , 06:29 PM
Would fold the hand preflop.

call the flop instead of raising to see what turn comes.

as played stack off on the flop if you committed to it once repotting the flop.

If it is a NL game turned to PLO could be up against more Top two and pair straight draw vs wraps and flush combos for this type of board.
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-09-2023 , 11:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfbook
Excellent and interesting question that shows the huge difference between how the the small blind and big blind play preflop and postflop. Below are some average numbers that might change several percentage points depending of your stake and rake structure.

Preflop: Hero open raises on the button and the small blind should 3-bet about 10% and cold-call about 3%. Afterwards, the big blind should also 3-bet about 10% however even though the small blind and big blind both are 3-betting about 10% here, the big blind who as already put in a bigger blind preflop and is closing the action will cold-call a lot more than the small blind's 3% and instead the big blind will cold-call about 20%. So SB and BB have about same 3-betting range but huge difference in cold-calling range.

Postflop: Since neither the small blind or big blind 3-bet preflop that means they don't have their strongest hands. But the SB only had a very tight preflop 3% cold calling range and is out of position to two player. A lot of players in real world situation donk-bet here 0% of the time and instead prefer to check-raise. So when you talk GTO or some computer solver output, if you don't also recognize what real world humans are doing you will get it wrong in one direction or another. So in SB real world humans often only use the betting tool of check-raising and not donk-betting here. But GTO will have the SB donk-betting anywhere from 5-10% depending on stakes and rake so split the difference and say SB donk-bets about 7.5%. Now while the SB had a preflop 3% cold-calling range, the BB had a lot larger about 20% cold-calling range. With the SB having already checked postflop the BB should be donk-betting a T73 board a lot. If the BB has some courage and skill, the BB should be donk-betting this T73 board about 1/3 of the time. You read that crap right the BB should be donk-betting about 35% of the time. LOL. Strange but true.
damn I didn't expect BB donk frequency to be that high. I assume it is for a small size? and how does the donking range look like in terms of hand selection?
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote
11-10-2023 , 03:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuo
damn I didn't expect BB donk frequency to be that high. I assume it is for a small size? and how does the donking range look like in terms of hand selection?
Yes you are right, the old famous 1/3 pot size is a great choice to use as a donking size here. As for the range, players get a bit wonky about what the like to put in bet ranges, check-raising ranges, etc. But a good way to do it is some basic ideas about what interacts with the Th7s3s board. The biggest over-pairs AAxx and KKxx donk about 50% of the time. The lower over-pairs QQxx and JJxx about 40% of the time. Punish people for trying to continue against you by donking your top set of TTT about 100% of the time. If someone in the Omaha sub-forum doesn't want to donk top set about 100% of time, then I still love you bro. Something I like to call "second over-pair" on a flop of T73 would be pocket 99xx and 88xx and donk those about 30% of the time. Middle set and bottom set donk about 50% of the time. The other small pocket pairs be careful and mostly check. But with the entire donking range be it pocket pairs or not, the basic point is against 2 opponents where you weren't even the preflop raiser means you need a nice combo draw to donk. You need the

set
over-pair
second over-pair
pocket pair
non-paired hand
flush draw
straight draw

combined with

flush draw
straight draw
backdoor flush

This type of play will freeze and confuse a lot of Button players where they will raise you almost never and they get stuck now not even acting last because of the SB check so the BU will end up folding a lot about more than a 1/3 of the time or be playing wrong into your strong range.

Last edited by wolfbook; 11-10-2023 at 03:54 AM.
BTN vs BB - Middle set Quote

      
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