SS PLO and other check/raise enthusiasts - please help us!
Some of you might remember a post from Oink and I almost 2 months ago (
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=35671)
Here are the cliffs of the process:
1) Oink and I suspected a
bot-ring might have been running on
Pokerstars. Mainly in the PLO100 games.
2) We shared our data/evidence with 2+2 in the BBV-thread and got confirmation (and added another account from plo50)
3) We contacted Pokerstars back in February with our data and arguments
4) The “bots” are gone (except one, who’s not a bot), but we haven’t received any money back or heard anything from Pokerstars besides standard mails like “we are looking into the subject”.
5) We have decided to make the names of the suspected accounts public. This will hopefully draw some attention to the case and give us, among many others, some of our money back.
The suspected accounts are:
.t.o.t.a.l.s.u.c.c.e.s.s (Russia)
.t.o.p.d.o.g.6.6.9 (Russia)
.t.h.o.u.g.h.t.s.a.w.a.y (Russia)
.R.i.c.h.a.r.d.L.i.o.n.H (Russia)
.s.m.e.l.l.u.r.b.u.x (Russia)
.R.a.z.d.a.v.a.y.7 (Kazakhstan)
.P.h.a.n.t.o.r.i.n (Kazakhstan)
So people, please check your databases and help us getting money back!
Here's the c/p of the original post Oink made:
If you have played in the stars PLO100 games you will know me as Charlybumbum. I have been a full time pro for 7.5 years making my living from midstakes LHE up untill 2010, midstakes PLO on Party/Eurobet up untill 2012 and Pokerstars PLO100-PLO200 since. The last couple of years mainly PLO100.
Grethe is also playing in those games, altho not as much as he is busy making money in the real world.
I log about 70-80k hands on average pr month, so there are few regs in the PLO100 games I dont notice and remember. I rarely if ever suspect wrong doing, however there have been a group of players from some eastern european countries the last 18 months or so, that has really triggered my curiosity. They all play very similarly, they all do the same type of things.
They have the same tendencies (Ie 4bet wide oop with a range of hands you dont typically see regs 4bet at these stakes, squeeze very wide in the BB compared to the pool of regs, they are all more showdown bound than typical regs and they have the exact same tendencies on the river.)
It is hard to explain more adequately, except that you are gonna have to trust me, when I say they are different compared to more standard "2p2 and RIO regs" - and what they do differently is the same across the board.
The thing is tho, that the players in question do not have completely similar stats. I have also experienced how they have adjusted to certain things, when I have adjusted to certain of their tendencies. This is imo evidence of human behaviour and not botting.
So if these are indeed bots, the bot owner(s) are clever enough to have them not play identically and to adjust when some opponents try and exploit them. Yes they are exploitable in some facets, but overall they are by far the best players in the PLO100 pool
So to some stats and various evidence of more or less circumstantial and anecdotal nature:
These are stats from russian PTR
In total we suspect 7 players
- 2 from Kazahkstan who we havent seen on pokerstars since July 2014. These are players 6 and 7 in the excel sheet. We could out them as neither PTR or russian PTR have tracked them since July 2014 and we are 99.9% sure they are banned from Stars.
Id like to point your attention to the crazy similarity in a lot of their stats. As I said above I am personally very sure that these guys where indeed bots and are now banned. But Pokerstars will never confirm or deny that pr their policy.
- 4 russian guys. These are players 1-3 and player 5 in the excel sheet. We have highlighted player 5's stats in italics as the sample is smaller and he is somewhat different than the rest stat wise. But style wise he is very very similar
- 1 from a particular eastern european country that we wont name, as it would be very obvious who he is. If you have a good guess, plz dont out him, it would be very unreasonable if he is indeed not a bot!
This is player 4 in the excel sheet. This guy is diverging somewhat from players 1-3 and player 5 in some matters. More on that later.
We dont know how hard evidence these stats are. As you can see they diverge a few percentage points in most key stats. However in other stats they are very similar (RFI SB and CR TURN as examples).
Feel free to give your honest opnion based on these stats. Smoking gun and damning evidence, or just 5 guys learning PLO from the same source?
I am gonna post a few further facts that is definetely circumstantial at best. I am well aware that these facts dont mean that these guys are bots. But it all adds up imho.
- All 7 players are new. None of them have been tracked on Stars prior to PTRs "hiatus" from Pokerstars
- I can not recall ever seing any of them chat. Most regs dont chat regularly, but will occasionally say something. These guys are silent as the grave
- I can not recall ever seing more than 2 of them at the same table at once
- I can not recall ever experiencing them on tilt
- According to russian PTR they never play zoom. 7 guys logging tons of hands, but never ever playing zoom...?
- According to PTR and russian PTR they never play above PLO400 and only one of them (player 4) has played PLO200. 7 guys crushing but not moving up...?
- Assuming the 2 kazahk players were bots, do note the similarities between player 1-5 and those two.
- Possible collusion: Completely circumstantial but I have 80k hands in total in my db with players 1-5. Over this sample they run a massive 100BI over AIEV and it is not because one of them is running hot. One player is at AIEV, the rest are massively above AIEV.
Furthermore, I have 30k hands with player 6-7, they ran 30 BI above AIEV.
I strongly suspect holecard sharing when they are at the same tables!!
- One funny but super weird story that imho is very very suspicous: Sometime last year, I want to say 4-6 months ago, I play a session in the afternoon. One of the guys (player 3) sits at 3 or 4 of my tables. The weird thing is that at 1 table he proceeds to minbet or minraise 100%. Literally 100%, both pre post (eg cbetting 1 bb into 65bb pots). It is only when faced with an all in, where he would call. He does this for about 25 minutes and then leaves. However at the other tables he plays his usual style.
I actually reported this to stars, but I get the std answer. "no wrong doing bla bla"
I think thats it. I have to say to me it looks bad and Grethe agrees with me. But if you guys think we are paranoid idiots who need to get out our tinfoil hats, let us know