How many random Kx can we make fold though, and how many AK Peel, and what’s our equity vs AKxx.

This sim is no good though because Kx includes a **** ton of hands:

AAK
KK
KKK
K4
K44
K3
K33
etc.

A better range would be to look at how we do against a king and that is: K!(AA,KK,4,3) and we are 42% vs this. That is how most people would interpret: "Your a dog to any Kx."

yeah this isn't right at all.
the 100 bb multiway sim on mastermind for k32r has us pure checking this hand and xrai vs co. id imagine it doesnt do that as we get deeper as the sim in question is like 1.8 spr. with bdfd it begins betting and with 2 it will pot. the fact its 200 bb makes me think we might end up just xfing this because of lack of playability. you definitely dont just auto cbet regardless of your cards because "you could have kk". sorry there aren't really similar boards for this at 200bb so i dont have a ton to add.
theres a 200bb hu sim sb vs btn where we're still xring this hand vs btn on k32r but like k43 is a bit scarier and this guy opened from the co and its 3 handed so it likely turns into a large punt in practice to gii here. looking at vision i see k53r we are xfing aa98!BDFD to a co 1/3 stab (at 100bb multiway) so id imagine this board looks similar.
i dont really get it the whole "aa setmining thing". your side cards matter a great deal when you're making a decision with what to do with your hand. clearly having a nut suit and connectivity with 98 is important. if you dont get this there's absolutely no way you can be condescending to someone and tell them they shouldnt be playing 5/5 lol. i really dont think image matters all that much at plo especially when looking at something like a flop cbet when none of your cards interact with or block the board. id have been more diplomatic with my response had u not been totally wrong while telling the guy lol move down u are not good enough for these stakes for playing a hand well

Good post.

Had actually been thinking about writing another reply in this thread to point out that xc this texture 3w is so marginal in even the best circumstances that i wouldnt worry about overfolding it.

OP suggested CO was lag in OP, which might mean we can xc slightly wider but that may still be optimistic.

Really enjoyed you referencing some solver solutions as I haven't looked at a spot like this in a while.

dont think it really matters if he is lag, theres just no way we're going to be able to win the hand / showdown often enough. if we're going to get bluffed might as well do it early

answer's post reminds me of someone playing NL with 4 cards

Ok so mine is 41.9 and yours is 42, great. Doesn't change anything.

Such an array of comments .. would be interesting to know who plays online v live .. just from scrolling ..

1) I'm struggling to 'accept' that a K-high Board is bad and/or we are a dawg in the long run .. I was thinking 60/40 Hero, not 40/60 dawg. Don't we want a LAG to have AK here if we choose to check?
2) I do accept that you can check Flop 'with a plan' .. but I think most plans include continuing once the B folds out

3) How did a LAG become a Maniac? I treat them differently for sure. LAG's have to connect to continue, which is why I like to cbet our range here OTF in an effort to find out their interest.

4a) My 'set mining' comment is related to NL thinking for sure. Typically you don't raise PF when you're set mining. IMO if you are more prone to c/f a Flop like this, then you should do it for less chips PF. While you need to consider current hand dynamics I feel that it's a major swing to be raising AA PF for value and then fold when it's still an over-pair.

4b) If OP feels PLO is a weaker game then this is a great hand to flat OOP and get away from when it misses. I feel that changing gears mid-hand (when OOP) is a good way to get run over by 'anyone' who is paying attention. A flat PF allows OP to x/c this Flop without a huge threat to their stack depth way more often.

5) I definitely noted the differences between the 100bb comments and the 200bb comments .. well received.

6) When a LAG (not Maniac) opens and then flats PF and/or we just flat OOP PF how often are we really worried about two pair combos? Yes, there's some KK in there but I just think that it's way too conservative to not peel once the B folds out.

7) Obv I'm a live Player and image plays (too much of) a huge factor in our Reg heavy games. What I know is the Players who have the image and yet over-fold AA in spots like this are the most unhappy Players in the game. Yes, I was sharp to OP .. and even though I'm getting railed here for both that and my comments I'm glad I wandered into this thread.

8) While I accept sims and I think they are exceptional tools in the late stages of live tournaments and both aspects of online play I think they are over-valued in live cash games. Perhaps that dooms me in the long run against 'those' Players but in our area's Player pool there aren't many and they're pretty easy to avoid at the table IMO.

9) Would you expect to label someone as a LAG if you know they are 'sim heavy' in practice? GL

I wrote it wrong - we are 58, villian with the K is 42. It changes it alot.

Why do you exclude all those hands? Other than AAK the rest are actually a big part of his range - he's not betting 2/3 pot 3 way in a 3bet pot with some random Kx. Don't get your sim.

Not trying to sim the hand here. Creating a sim to address the comment that we were a dog to a random Kx hand, which isn't true. We are a dog to any hand that contains a K but those hands include all of the combos I excluded and the two things are not the same. I was just being pedantic.

Got it, so just arguing for the sake of argument. Cool.

i dont understand the live vs online thing. the hand looks like a xf. all of your posts read like a NLHE players first day playing PLO. bare overpairs with no backup to go with it when there's a good amount of money behind esp multiway are just not strong hands. it doesn't matter if he's "bluffing" on the flop, even something like bare bottom pair has a huge amount of equity vs you in this game. what is your game plan here to win the hand or get to showdown if you c/c the flop w AA98r? look at the guy and ask him nicely to check down the hand? you're still looking at all AA being equal which isn't the case. if you have a BDFD here i think u can make a case for continuing (i dont have access to a deep sim on this texture multiway but the 100bb k53r having a bdfd is the difference between continuing or not vs a 1/3 psb stab by co). also the overfold thing is weird. i told you solver is xfing this hand vs a smaller stab size, this isn't an overfold when it's multiway. image player type blah blah it can matter in some instances particularly on later streets, but worrying about things like image, being happy, avoiding people, thinking sims dont apply except to tournaments all dont really make much sense to me. PLO is an extremely structured game imo. just because you're xfing a bad flop for your hand doesn't mean you flat pre.

i think op's thought process is very good tbh for a game he professes to be weak at

@Sub I like the content of your posts but could you please add paragraphs I think I just sprained my eyes.

Can we condense this a little, are you straight up advocating check folding this flop 100% of the time 3 ways?

I note you said the solver is folding vs this stab size 100%, I would think though that has a lot to do with what the solver would bet with when checked too.

Would the solver bet KT98hh (or similar) here? (I don’t think it would?)

I asked a Player I respect about the the Flop Check .. he agrees with it most of the time .. so let's say 80% and move on from there.

1) We are not multi-way anymore as the B has folded out .. I will accept that the checking has to do with being multi-way, but now that element has been removed. We are now HU with a CO PF opener who flatted a 3b in position.
2) If your definition of Huge is 40%, then yes, that's huge .. but it's not the 60% we have

3) My plan is to keep putting chips in as a favorite and evaluate each street as it comes
4) x/f IMO is like saying we can find a better spot .. I get ripped on this site almost every time I mention that train of thought

5) Let's say we x/f 80% of the time .. we've just folded 64% of the time we are a 60% favorite. Again, something posters get ripped for suggesting and IMO is over-folding
6) If we know that we are going to end up folding 'a lot' with this type of holding then why are we raising PF? What if the B had folded? How does that change our mindset?

7) As I've said previously, why not just flat PF and set mine with bad AAxx? The x/f is generated due to stack depth, eh? So why are we inflating the pot when we 'know' we are going to give up the betting lead 'a lot' and end up folding 'a lot' (even when we have more equity).
8) I've never suggested that we are PLO strong here, only 'ahead'. The Sim is only as good as the range you provide it .. and I can tell you right now that the V in my Player Pool are much wider than the suggested ranges being shown in this thread. (That's my live v online reference) I'm going to assume that my EV is going to be higher v my Player Pool than the 60/40 calculated here.

9) I didn't say that Sims don't apply, I said they were over-valued
10) Yes, I'm a little torqued about the 'Day 1' comments, but that's OK, I've been underestimated a lot before and it's never too bad to get knocked in the nose once in a while. I've felt pretty good about my 'place' in the PLO hierarchy (Midwest and Vegas) and the results tied to it at low stakes. But I will take this thread as a sharp point to dig more.

Pretty sure my first post in this thread was about 'jail' spots and not soliciting advice as to how to get out of them. Raising OOP and then folding just seems like jail to me .. not a happy place. So I will again relent to NL thinking and say that you might as well just flat bad AA here and turn it into a set mine when this deep. In the end Poker is about results and even though it may not be the optimal game play I think most (uncomfortable) humans are happier losing 20 than they are losing 90. GL