UTG100bb
MP 140bb Villian 1 (50/15)
CO 140bb Hero
BU 100bb
SB 100bb
BB 100bb

Hero has KQJ9

MP raises to 3.5bb
Hero !3 to 12bb

Flop (25.5bb)
J92

MP bets 19.1bb
Hero ?

I would get it in if it was a 100bb deep pot.

Any merit of just calling to see the river? we have a SPR of about 5+.
Villian don't have a history of donking with air so lightly we are facing at least a combo draw, 2p or set

how would you play it?

We have several things going for us besides top 2. I would just jam flop since he let us.

Just jam flop, you're near the top of your range on this board, if you're behind well you've got outs, the extra stack depth is not enough, if you were 500bb deep you would consider a different line

We should be calling most of our 2 pairs to protect our range, but this is a decent candidate to raise with the SD and FD blocker + BDFD. Personally I would just call since I think we get more value from playing IP over multiple streets.

We've got plenty of worse J9 to put in our range, given this is the nut J9 that also has a straight draw we should put it in our value raising range, particularly given we have relatively little visibility on what turns are good for us and we prevent the possibility of them messing us around on difficult turns.

Evante, where is your ACE?

I just woke up and am on my first cup of coffee and maybe my brain isn't working on all cylinders yet. But you 3bet a MP open raise and your hand is only single suited, not even single suited to the top card, and you don't have an ACE in your hand. Double suited, yeah sure, no ACE required. But single suited without an ACE, I don't like it, I don't care that villain is loose.

In the long run, either the villain or someone else in hands like this are going to punish you for 3betting a single suited hand without an ACE where half the table hasn't even acted yet. Pick a better spot to isolate the fish or more precisely, pick better cards.

EDIT: If I got this completely ****ing wrong, then I'm blaming it on just having just woke up, but I think I am right.

Position is his ace

You swing back and forth between giving great advice and stupid dumb ass crap advice. Maybe you should lose half of those.

Dude wtf, if I am guilty of giving bad advice then your job is to explain why rather than just attack me like that, there's absolutely no call for this sort of tone, you're not being threatened just because you disagree with me, where this place is a debate it's a super low stakes debate that you don't need to win at all costs

Everyone, don't read my spoiler until you have tried to answer my question first.

I gave Evante the basic version of "don't 3bet a single suited hand without an ACE." But even if you had absolute position, that is the Goddamn Button, not Cutoff. Complex version is the question...

If you were on the Button with it's absolute position, of the very few single suited hands without ACE you could play, what one of two things would your single suited hands without an ACE need?

I hold you to a higher standard.

"Position is his ace" is one of the worst posts by anyone I've seen in awhile around here considering the OP of the thread was on the CO not the BU. And if you are going to try and steal the BU, you might want an ACE in your hand. And 3betting in position with half the table left to act isn't a guarantee of position or a heads up pot. There are long detailed posts by you with tons of value. And then there are flippant short mostly smart ass posts by you. And this is not the first flippant comment/post by you and it hurts people trying to learn the game.

Who what when where? I'd love to read this.

I'll try and search it out, otherwise I'll paraphrase it myself. Give me a moment.

I lifted this from a post dated over three years ago by Ladybruin. It is simple, but will make your mind go poof the next time you are looking at a range and wondering why some hands are included and some are not.



"The TEN is a massively powerful card to have in your hand to 3bet. The silly but obvious thing about a straight is it can't be made without a FIVE or a TEN. It has a role in how to play certain hands. You don't need the TEN to be on the board to make a straight and will split pots less often."

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EDIT: Back to this thread, take a look at the OP's starting hand. It doesn't have and Ace...The most important. It doesn't have a pair, like connect KK. It doesn't have a ten.

It is not a good 3bet. I tried to keep it as simple as "don't 3bet single suited hands without an ace" and this **** still got derailed. Geez.

'Hold me to a higher standard'. Okay, lol I suppose. There's just absolutely no need to get personal on a poker advice board, evidently my short reply was taken as an insult, but I don't have to post anything at all if I don't want to, so if I want to make a short post, I should be able to make a short post that stands on its own without being abused. I'm not going to debate preflop with you anymore nor at all on any other threads if my post length is getting policed and I'm at risk of being attacked for giving my thoughts. Inappropriate, dude. If you think my advice is that bad, either a) take the time to debate it and show why its bad or b) ask yourself if you're so obviously correct just because it's you that there's nothing to gain by considering if maybe i'm right a bit too.

Spiderman, with great power, comes great responsibility. You dropped the ball with the "position is his ace" comment. I called you out on it. You are the one now dragging this out and further derailing this thread while the rest of us are posting in this thread about why OP's hand wasn't a good 3bet.

Okay

Looking at a GTO solver - this hand in this situation would be a fold. Of course, that assumes the villain is playing GTO and the players left to act are playing GTO. A call is marginally -ve EV so I think it's fine, but I suspect klem1234 is correct that 3! here is a bit much.

Like others have said would just jam the flop and feel good about it.

Are there better options than 3! preflop? Maybe but it's still probably a defensible choice

<face palm> There is no "maybe" it is not even close on what hands are a play and what is not. Some you guys are stubbornly making this Omaha forum worse.

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MarkD (or ANYONE), can you do us all a favor since you mentioned looking up the Solver on this one. Can you post a screen shot of Cutoff or Button 3betting filtered to single suited without an ace. Then filter for 3betting singled suited without an ace, pair or ten.

OP, I won't tell you how to play the flop on hands you should have never reached the flop. You would have correctly reached the flop with an Ace (often suited), a high pair like connected KKxx that on this board would be an over pair and straight draw or a a connected TEN in your hand that on this board would have a straight draw. This board greatly illustrates why 3betting with the correct range is important.

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I have the Omaha forum set to "all threads." This thread however is from the "LOW" section. Anyone giving someone starting out of playing low or playing low for awhile but facing higher rake at low stakes any advice here but "don't 3Bet single suited hands without an ace" is doing the players of the low section a disservice.

I filtered for CO 3bet vs MP open single suited without an ace - it's an empty set so a screenshot is not necessary.

If I include an ace, but remove a T or a pair there are 12 hands we can play before the EV of 3betting is zero relative to another action. Ax9w8y6x is the last 3! hand - this must be a weird strategic board coverage hand to add as part of the overall strategy. The difference between calling and 3 betting for a number of the hands in this category are essentially zero. edit: looking at this a bit more and there are exactly three hands that are clear 3bets and the rest indifference or potential rounding errors of the sim. Those three hands? They are AKQJ suited, but not having the ace suited. If the Ace is suited then you are better to call. The suited aces are much higher EV than the suited non ace versions of these hands but the simulator is indifferent to calling / three betting and places all of the Ahigh suited hands in this category(no ten) in the call category.

I also double checked two pair hands, surely KKQQss is a 3bet right? Nope, there is no single suited two pair hand it will 3bet in the CO that doesn't contain AA.

These conclusions are also true for the button.

Having an ace in your hand is critical to betting single suited hands according to this simulator. Klem is not wrong.

edit: What about calling hands?

If you remove a pair, ace, you have a number of broadway hands you can call with - but they ALL have a Ten in them. If you remove a Ten then you are left with the pure rundowns 9 high and below down to 6543. There no hands with any broadway cards that don't have a Ten in them - this is shocking to me.

Thank you MarkD for putting in the effort. I'm glad you liked the additional TEN info, but that was Ladybruin not me. I appreciate you.

Thank you Evante for making a great thread. Not all threads go the way as expected, but there is still a great deal to learn. Keep posting. I appreciate you.

What I don't appreciate is some of the old school guys stubbornly making the Omaha forum worse.

My point that other pre-flop actions could MAYBE have been better was intending to point out:

That the ev between call, fold and raising is not necessarily very large.

And that even if a solver prefers call or fold to raise (yes i am familiar with plenty of standard 6-max ranges) it might still be ok to raise for exploitative reasons against this particular table.

And also, that for a lot of players who haven't learned/memorized perfect 6-max strategy, i would rather they err on the side of 3! some incorrect hands than flatting too many.

In my opinion this is classis doubling down to save face. But I'll let others decide for themselves. You better hope there isn't a poll on you trying to wiggle out of this for the several reasons I posted.

I'm sorry to tell you, "don't 3bet single suited hands without an ace" is pretty damn easy to remember and should be the foundation of constructing a 3 betting range.

Whatever. I see why a lot of people that know a lot about the game and are willing to contribute don't take the ****ing time to do so. I posted something easy, but two old school accounts posted

"position is his ace"
"Are there better options than 3! preflop? Maybe"

<double face palm>

I'm done trying. Good luck everyone with the sage advice these smart asses sometimes post.

I don't mind and even actively welcome if you want to elaborate on why you think 3! is not the right play.

But maybe chill out a little bit and hold off on calling out other posters until you have settled in more.

Especially because what I wrote - supported your argument that 3! was probably not the best choice. So why are you trying to pick a fight with me?