2/2 Live. Flop the nut flush heads up 4bet pot. Very deep, $6000 effective - Small Stakes Pot Limit Omaha

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2/2 Live. Flop the nut flush heads up 4bet pot. Very deep, $6000 effective

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12-03-2023 , 09:24 PM

Phraust

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 349

Hero $6000 2/2 PLO live 8 handed

AA96hh in sb A9h

Btn straddle $5

Very rare any pots have gone limped to the flop and even raises tend to get called by multiple players. Even 3bets get called and go multiway a good bit of time, but they do generate more folds than just a raise. Looking to limp 3bet/4bet rather than open and go 6 ways OOP to a flop. Most stacks are deep so want to get least amount of players to the flop as possible.

Hero calls, bb calls, MP raise $25, 1 call, CO makes it $115, btn folds, hero raise $400, folds to MP who calls.

Flop ($860) 752hhh
Hero?

MP has us covered.

Looking to build a pot but not sure how to go about it. MP is LAG and is capable of bluffing but likely won't go crazy in a pot already this big. Unless he has Ah (which he obviously doesn't) I don't see him spewing. Although there are a good bit of deep stacks at the table, we are both the deepest. He also knows I am capable of bluffing as well.

Not sure if it's possible he could have a set. I have seen him play big pots with low pairs. If this was just a raised or 3bet pot he could definitely have one. But with the fact it was him that 3bet it's hard to say. Unless it's like KK77/55/22 or he was just getting out of line preflop. I could also see him putting me on AA and playing a wide range hoping to hit and stack me. He's not afraid to GII.

If we bet I can see him calling with some flushes and sets. Possibly 2 pair if he somehow has that as well. Otherwise he's likely folding everything else. He's not peeling with just an overpair. If I check I think he probably checks back so I don't think checking is the way to go. If he senses weakness he could maaaybe stab at it with a random hand but I think I'd have to check the flop and turn which risks losing 2 streets of value if he just checks back.

It's possible he might bet one of his made hands, but why risk checking and him checking back instead of me just keeping the betting lead and having him call? If he was going to bet, it's likely with a hand he would've called a bet with. If I check call flop it looks pretty suspicious. So the turn might go x/x. I'm not going to x/c with a bluff. So I figure bet to keep my range open to value/bluffs.

This player is also the player who has 72XX in this hand: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/3...layer-1829186/

Not saying he has 72XX here. But I think it helps to know the type of hands he's raising/playing.

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12-03-2023 , 09:55 PM

SteveL91

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,260

Tough hand. Because you're so deep, I think it's going to be tough to really get much due to the board, but it's still a fun thought exercise.

Standard disclaimer: I'm not a particularly strong deep-stacked player.

With that said, I don't particularly like your PF approach. You're so deep that I don't think limp/re-raising accomplishes much in terms of driving anyone out, so all you really end up doing is bloating the pot in a bad position with a middling AA hand, but as you were there, I'll defer to your table judgment. Also, since you're so deep, I don't think calling the 3bet looks terribly suspicious.

On the flop as played, I like betting about a third of the pot, since that would be my standard "let me see if I can just take the pot now" bet. I don't mind checking, but the stacks are too deep and the board is too random to plan on getting him to run a massive, multi-street bluff. If you do decide to check the flop, I feel like you need to plan on checking the turn as well. If he pots the turn, I'd just checkraise there, but if he bets small, I'd look to checkraise the river. I understand your point about missing multiple streets of value, but on a 752 monotone flop, you really need the stars to align to get much; if he doesn't have anything, there's no real value to be had, so it's about trying to find spots to extract what you can. And he just isn't going to have much on a flop like this very often.

Assuming you bet small on the flop, I'd probably look to just pot the turn and river as long as the board doesn't pair, but I do think sticking to smaller bets is justifiable as it could induce lighter call downs, and would really depend upon my history with him: if I feel like he's prone to looking me up, or if I've done anything stupid recently, I'd favor the larger bets, but if I haven't been getting out of line, I'd probably just go 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 and move on. The only hands you'll really extract any significant value from are worse flushes, so I'd just let him decide if he wants to flip a coin to see if I have the bare ace or not. I would, however, look to size up on a turn K/Q/J.

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12-03-2023 , 11:49 PM

answer20

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 10,857

1/4-1/2 pot .. problem is this Flop typically doesn't hit a 4b range except a made flush.

Gotta bet something and then see if V wants to play 'poker' with you. GL

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12-03-2023 , 11:53 PM

Phraust

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 349

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveL91

If I just opened from the sb, in this instance it's possible it could have went: hero open, MP 3bet, CO 4bet, hero 5bet. But I'm not sure if either of them even had an actual holding they'd want to 3bet/4bet. It's possible with CO being agro he could be seeing a spot to squeeze IP.

But in most cases from this table it'd just call around and we'd go 6+ handed to the flop. Basically nobody liked folding to a single raise. Then we miss a good bit of the time and end up x/f. Obviously in this instance that wouldn't have been the case. But trying to have the best hand or make it to the river with just AA when we flop no set or fd against 5 other players in the worst position is going to be difficult.

Even if the pot got bloated and it only goes 3 of us to the flop. I'd much prefer that than a smaller pot with 6 or more of us in it. Much easier to navigate and better equity in a bigger pot. This could be the wrong approach though.

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12-04-2023 , 03:14 AM

MarkD

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,624

I don't mind preflop. I am not convinced it's optimal to LRR, but I think it's fine.

Flop, I would bet 1/3 and I woudl be betting 1/3 the vast majority of the time in this spot.

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12-04-2023 , 08:45 AM

hazelasty

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 242

1/4 pot
What's the turn?

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12-04-2023 , 10:30 AM

Phraust

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 349

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveL91

I understand your point about missing multiple streets of value, but on a 752 monotone flop, you really need the stars to align to get much; if he doesn't have anything, there's no real value to be had, so it's about trying to find spots to extract what you can. And he just isn't going to have much on a flop like this very often.

Decision:

Spoiler:

hero bets $600, he folds.

Against an unknown I probably bet 1/4 to 1/3 pot.

This might be too big of a bet even considering the history I have with the player.

My thoughts were what I had in my OP so I don't want to reiterate it all here but basically he's going to fold mostly everything he has and he's not bluffing without Ah. If he has a set, 2p, or flush it's the only way to get a call and he will definitely call at least one street with this sizing. If it's a smaller flush he might fold the turn but he would likely call flop to see what I do next. He knows I can bluff and his pockets are deep so he's never playing with scared money. I wanted to build the pot to try to get as much value as possible but that likely isn't happening since him having a flush, 2p or set are so slim.

Even though he knows I could bluff I figure he's not peeling with any overs even to a small bet since he knows AA is in my range. So if he isn't going to spew and bluff if I check, folds his trash/overpairs to any bet, but will call a larger bet with a flush/set/2p, I might as well go with the larger bet. It's possible he even checks back his smaller flushes so I think betting is the best way to go. I also figure a bigger bet might look more like a bluff than a smaller bet. He might be wondering why I didn't bet smaller if I have the nuts on a board like this.

I know this is unbalanced but I'm not trying to balance against this player. I'm trying to exploit.

Those were my thoughts at the time.

In hindsight I'm not sure if I take this line how much I would bet on the turn. Although he would call that size on the flop he might let his smaller flushes go if I bet on the larger side again. Not sure he puts me on a bluff or thinks he has the best hand if I take that line especially OOP. But betting small on the flop then large on the turn after I get called looks pretty strong. I almost think betting the flop large, checking the turn, then bombing the river if turn went x/x looks more like a bluff. But if he so happens to have a set then checking the turn would be awful. Odds are if he calls the flop he has a flush though. Betting the flop large, then the turn smaller, wouldn't make much sense unless he puts me on a bluff that got scared to pull the trigger again for a large sizing. If I took that line the river wouldn't make sense to bet if he called the turn.

Also if I bet the flop fairly small, he might be inclined to bluff although I highly doubt it. That's not even a possibility when I take this large size. If we get lucky and he does that we have no problem flat calling then x/r turn.

With all of that in mind, I think small bet flop, small bet turn, then depending on the river tank for a bit then large bet might be the best line (maybe just bet small again). Or bet large flop, check turn, bomb river.

Last edited by Phraust; 12-04-2023 at 10:38 AM.

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