I find that around me where 1/2 and 1/3 games are played they often use stacks of $5 chips and that the players seem to bet in those increments more often, essentially making them glorified, but lower-capped buy-in 3/5 games.

1/3 games are capped at $300 which is like limiting to 60BBs in 3/5; but I see so many of these players making PF raises to $20 and $25 with 'nickels' routinely. This is like 7-8x where as in 3/5 its 4-5x.

Obviously, this helps 5 and 10 multiplication tables, but I can't figure out if this helps or hurts the game...I see a lot of weaker 1/3 players don't adjust the scale and end up making some bad plays, e.g. calling a raise of $20 with QTo after having limped in for $3. In 3/5 I don't often call $30 with QTo in a raised pot after having limped it for $5...but I don't limp this hand very much to start with, but that's a whole other ball of wax.

I lived the SF Bay area for a years a while back and used to play Lucky Chance's 1-1-2 NL game, where they played a cap of $200 and gave you a rack of white $1 and 5 black $20 chips. Red $5 chips were not allowed in play.

Also, in Vegas, a lot of 1/3 games were played with $1 and $3 chips which made calculating #BBs and bet sizing more 'correct' to the game and the pot.

Does anyone else notice this?

woah I have never seen this. that would be weird.

Everywhere I have played, mostly Michigan and Vegas, 1/2 and 1/3 are all red chip games. You are right in that a lot of preflop raises tend to be in increments of 5 for chip convenience, and this leads to a lot of 5x and 7.5x raises in 1/2.

1/2 and 1/3 tend not to play much different than each other other than limped pots are bigger so when you hit you can size up your bets easier.

There are some strategy adjustments to be made in these games relative to an online game or otherwise where 3x raises are more common:

-Stack size relative to raise size is most important when deciding whether to call a preflop raise. You can call a $15 raise wider when you are $400 deep vs $200 deep.

-When raising premium hands chose a sizing that get 1 or 2 callers, as that is usually the most profitable situation.

-Defending your BB is less important because your price is not as good. I actually defend my button wider than my BB vs a 5x or larger raise. These spots are rare in these games anyways.

Thats about it.

1/2 and 1/3 games playing with predominantly $5 chips is most common pretty much everywhere. By me there's also a 1/3 game that play with a lot of $25 chips - probably in part because they allow first buy-in at the table out of the dealer's rack.

Not really. Opens to $12 or $22 are just as common as $10 and $25.

Hardly. The biggest factor in how a game plays is the cap. Locally 2/5 games are usually capped at $1000 and 1/3 at 400 or 500. The games play very differently.

The second biggest factor in how a game plays is probably the typical open size vs typical stack sizes.

Live games typically see larger opens than online. I don't think the chips used have anything to do with it.

A lot of players at the lowest stakes live games are not fundamentally sound.

Name one? I've played almost all the 1/3 games at least on the strip and have never seen one that uses 1s and 3s as the chips.

+1 These responses match my experience in 1/2 and 1/3 games as well (in Tampa). Especially that people don't tend to make bets in multiples of 5. So many bets are 6,12, 18, etc. it actually makes it a pain sometimes as they won't use their $1 and $2 chips to make exact change on their bet and the dealer is always making change. But those games definitely don't play like the 2/5+games.

There are certainly $1/2 and $1/3 games that play like larger games, but the reality is that other than blinds, the most use many of the players have for the $1 chip is tipping. The use of predominantly red and green chips does not mean the game is playing like a larger game.

That being said, anyone that believes live games function in the raises should be 2.x times the BB is simply not making the transition to live in a manner that will allow them (generally) to succeed. Seeing limp/call of a raise to $20 or $30 with QTo in live is just standard at some tables. Other tables, a raise to $7 gets folds all around with the raiser getting the blinds.

When the Wynn first started to spread 1/3 nl, the game was played with
$3 chips, but that was over 10 years ago and they no longer use them
in the 1/3 game.

Caesars and Red Rock will use $2 chips in their 1/2 nl game.

Lucky Chances is the outlier in the SF Bay Area. IIRC the game is also 1/1/2 but 4 to limp, which makes for absurd, absurd pots when a bunch of people limp. Like I won 2 hands in a row and was stacking chips for half an orbit.

Every other place I've played - Cal Grand, Oaks, Palace, Bay, M8trix, AJs - uses $1s amd $5s.

There was a casino near me that used $2 chips for 1/2NL. The majority seemed to prefer that. I often wondered if switching to $2 chips would be good or bad.

Bellagio has $3 chips but I never really understood why/when they are used. I have a couple at home because it’s such an odd thing for a game that usually plays mostly reds.

Bellagio and Aria use those $3 chips for the rake because for many years it was $4 max and they didn't want the boxes filling up with $1's. The $3 chip means they never have to drop more than 2 chips per hand. Sometimes those 3's get pushed to a player because the dealer made change expecting the pot to get over $30 but it never did, or because a player saw them in the rack and asked to buy one.

The reason I never do a "correct" raise of 2.5 or 3x while playing 1/2 isn't because I don't have the proper chips. It's because it takes at least 5x to narrow the field and people will still call it with bad hands.

I play mostly 3/5 now; not sound all bragadoccio, but I don't put myself on the 1/3 list because I feel I'm out of my element there...in both good ways and bad. But I watch my friend as he'll often sit 1/3 while waiting for 3/5. Here's two examples:

#1 - 1/3 - max 300 (100BB)
UTG: $6 straddle
HJ: Hero (friend) flats the $6 with KJo ($500)
CO: V1 raises to $35 ($600+)
HJ: Hero calls $35

Aside from critiquing my friends play, I asked him if he would ever call $60 OOP after having limped a $10 straddle with the same hand in 3/5. He says no...but then shrugs that he would call $35 and so he feels its the same thing and the stack sizes and situation are often the same in 3/5 so only there's only $10 (blinds + straddle) in the pot here vs $18 - the $8 difference is small enough to ignore he says.


#2 - 1/3 - max 300 (100BB) (about a year ago)
UTG: Hero (me) raise to $15 A-K ($500)
UTG+1: V1 call $15
MP2: V2 call $15
HJ: V3 call $15
BTN: V4 call $15
SB: V5 call $15

In most of my 3/5 games, a 5x raise from UTG doesn't often end up taking off the flop 6-handed. But here, I hear a lot of people says, 'eh, its only $15' and carelessly flick out the three reds. With $93 in the pot, I feel like I'm going to have to adjust my post-flop play dramatically and/or hope to hit the flop much stronger than normal. Also, with two relatively shorter stacks still in the hand (~$100) they're not priced out from much even though they're still sitting on ~30+ BBs. I know game flow and other factors can affect how people are playing so I'm not discounting that as a factor.

I guess the flip side is this: If you're averaging $30/hr in both 1/3 and 3/5 games, you're crushing 1/3 at 10BB/hr and right in the zone for expectation in 3/5 at 6 BB/hr. And, if my BR is $15k, then I'm 50 BIs for 1/3 and 30 BI for 3/5 meaning adjusting play and risk (of ruin) formulas for the 'bigger' game.

The $30 spends the same away from the table, so are you better off in one game or the other?

THE PEACH!! Wish they still had them. That was when it was uncapped and full of action.

That's atypical and usually when rake chips manage to find their way into games.

Doesn't make you feel your risk reward ratio is now skewed against you and/or you're getting some bad calls in your favor?

#1
If you open raise in CO to 3x, then getiing 1:2, and BB is getting 4.5:2 for a call.
If you open raise in CO to 6x, then getting 1:4 and BB is 3:2 for a call and should be adjusting his calling range for worse odds - although admittedly not by too much, maybe folding bottom 10% of range compared to 3x raise.

So the extra 3 BB don't buy you much vs. BB and lowers return rate when uncontested. Over the course of a 6 hour session, I think this tends to have negative impacts on win rate?

Your two hand examples are perfect to show why you want to raise larger.

First hand, you find somebody who is bad enough to limp/call 12BB OOP with trash. Without people like that, rake would kill those games.
Second hand, you could have made it $30 to only play against 1 or 2 villains if you wanted to, but decided to play a family pot OOP. Not a bad thing, but you obviously have to adjust postflop for that.

The simple reason why larger raises are standard at 1/3 live but not even on the microstakes online is that those low stakes live games are only games left where enough players are bad enough preflop to make that strategy work.

Your fundamental problem is that you are trying to apply online strategy to a live environment where MANY at the table are not concerning themselves with math. At $1/2 and $1/3, all a raise to $15 does at most tables is get you five calls. Even a raise to $25 may get four calls in some areas. Other places, a straddle to $4 will be folded around. Math has NOTHING to do with the decisions being made by a lot of those players other than "OMG, two suited cards and I am getting five to one...besides, it is only $20. But if I hit...I clean up."

The more you overthink low stakes games, the more depressed you are going to make yourself when you continue getting stacked by hands/players you refuse to accept are willing to light money on fire pre-flop...

Parx uses $2 chips (along with $1 and $5 chips) in its 1-2 (and probably 1-3) NL game. They are generally only used PF or during all-ins, so it's not a big deal at all. (The $2 chips are also used in the 6-12 limit games.)

Bellagio also uses $3 chips in their 9-18 limit game.

I totally agree and understand this risk going in. That's why I said, I mostly play 3/5 as I'd prefer to play where the average stacks are bigger (I have separate post about $30/hr in 1/3 vs 3/5) and the rake is the same in our cardroom for both games, so why not play where effect is lessened.

Also, not saying the skill level increase at 3/5 here or elsewhere is a huge gap. Incidentally a fair number play both and the 1/3 players trying to take a shot or even those trying to chase their earlier losses, don't adjust well.

I do have to say that one of the reasons after I moved up that I don't sit 1/3 often is because of the fact that more often the average 1/3 is worse for wear, but the fact that more hands tend to be played more multi-way on multiple streets negates a good deal of 'skill' advantage that can be deployed HU and/or IP vs. a lone weak player.

My feeling is that if I wanted to gamble I'd go to the local casino and bet Bank at Baccarat; if I wanted to torch money I'd buy scratch-offs and play 20-spot Keno.

Also, my last vacation to Hawaii just after NYE was paid for, largely in part, by the dedicated members of "Say Good-bye to Franklin" club.

The Rio 2/3 game is played with 1, 2, 5, 25, 100 chips. I've played everywhere in Vegas in recent years and I think the $2 chips at Rio are one of the only places that doesn't just use the standard 1/5/25/100. I think they are kind of neat for putting out blinds, taking rake, tipping, having more colours in your stack, etc.

Some oddball rooms in California play 1/2 with $1 chips as the standard, everyone has massive piles but isn't actually deep, it seems silly.

My market was very late in regularly running NLHE games but my (limited) playing experiences elsewhere was that the 2-3-10 chips were mostly FLHE fixtures allowing for 3 chip/6 chip and 4/8 chips structures with massive stacks/pots. We use 25s for 100/200 for this reason I always assumed.

$5 chips for 1/2 or 1/3 is the standard for most of the country.

In NL games that play with $2 chips (1/3 $60-300 NL game at Agua Caliente near Palm Springs, CA for one), weaker players tend to underbet more because of the number of chips involved and can be exploited. Unfortunately, most of the low stakes NL games played with $1/$2 chips only have very high rakes and low buyins ($60 or $100 cap for much of California) and leech the bad rec players away from the $300+ buying 1/2 or 1/3 games.

In lower stakes games with $25 chips (1/3 $100-500 at MGMNH in Maryland, the lowest NL stakes offered, as psujohn alluded to), weaker players tend to call bigger bets because of the fewer number of chips needed.

Thread was over early and then turned to strat ... Most $2/$3 chips are pretty rare unless 'limit' is involved in the game these days.

You would be amazed at how many more players will sit down at 1/3 but look at you with disdain if you invited them over to the 2/5 table. (So blind conscious!) Case in point, we had about $6k on a 1/2 table Saturday night and a request to switch to 2/5 almost had 2 players ready to cash out!

I go to one casino that only drops blacks for rake and BBJ to keep chip count low in boxes. GL

Are dealers constantly keeping a running collection of rake on the table and coloring up? I think here they will hold the jackpot drop and color it up to nickels before dropping it but coloring up to $100 seems nuts. You'd even have to change dealers with a running rake still left on the table.

I have played in 1/2 or 1/3 games that use $2 chips though they dominant chips are still the $5s. Maryland Live insists on using them here and I hate them because the light blue color can be confused with the green $25 chips. Used them also at the old Monte Carlo room in Vegas where a particular dealer kept making sure I had $2 chips in the pots I won because I kept tossing them to her for tokes. She was cute and I was on vacation.

The Dealers accumulate the rake/BBJ drop in the outer columns of the table tray and accumulate reds in the middle along the way. When the tray is full of red, Floor takes the reds away and give the Dealer black. I think the 'inner' tray stays at 1000 with some change making red/white (8-9 black chips).

When a push comes the sitting Dealer evaluates and will make a drop in front of the pushing Dealer. No drops without a Dealer/Floor standing over their shoulder. As you can imagine, the BBJ drop doesn't happen all that often at $1 per hand.

These Dealers aren't allowed to sell chips to players and I'm not really sure they can color 'down' a black either, but I'm pretty sure I've seen some green in the tray from time to time. GL

overall for the better players any thing that speeds up the game is usually better for them.

the house often likes smaller chips as then the players dont pay attention to the rake going in, as the rake doesnt involve changing a chips color.

I wonder who came up with that system. That's almost as good as having a counter next to the dealer that shows how much money is raked during the current hand and how much went off the table over the last hour.

Next step would be to let every player know how much rake they paid at the end of their session.