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Old 06-12-2009, 10:36 AM   #1
Alizona
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Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

Here's a text recap of the hand:

http://www.burnandturn.com/poker/sch...vincent-final/

Now here's a video of the hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esp7gXv63Xs

Notice the 8c on the board and in Hugh's hand. Notice at 0:36 the commentator says "...that's a terrible flop, three dull cards, unsuited..."

Huh? The text recap shows a suited board.

Since I can't find any mention of this, and since I cannot believe that NO ONE would've noticed the two 8c's on the table (plenty of spectators obv), I have to conclude that:

(a) this was not a mistake by ESPN thru post-production addition of an incorrect overhead flop shot (same reasoning, it would've been noted by now), and

(b) this is a pretty decent fake (because they'd have to alter the audio in addition to the video)

Which is it? The video ends by listing Russ as the "1993 World Champion", which he was not (Jim Bechtel was)... more evidence that this whole video is a throw-away?

EDIT: At 1:00, the floor announcer claims Hugh can win with runner runner spades??????? WTF

Last edited by Alizona; 06-12-2009 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:50 AM   #2
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

Wow just watched it and you are right. 8c on flop, 8c in his opponents hand. Wow, if this video is not doctored....... he was a cheating scumbag way back then too.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:57 AM   #3
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

Televised poker? This is GOSSIP imo - an additional unproven allegation of Russ Hamilton's cheating ways.

Whatever, u mods do what you need to do and move threads around... I just hope it doesn't get buried because this deserves an explanation.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:21 AM   #4
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

Another site seems to confirm the flop was 8s not 8c... but then WHY does the floor announcer CLEARLY state that Hugh needs "a couple of spades" among a few other runner combos to win the hand and stay alive? I guess the audio must be faked as well? Hugh doesn't even hold a spade, and even if he did have the 8s, Russ has the higher Ks! wtf, I am so confused...

http://www.pokerlistings.com/poker-h...-1994?show=all
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:22 AM   #5
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWYcuMsDCFU&NR=1

Confirmed the same video is in a second location from a different youtube uploader.

Someone on youtube commented on there being two 8c in the deck as well..
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:33 AM   #6
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

Russ during exit interview: "I play here at the Horseshoe a lot, so I have a lot of friends here."

Dealer friends? Floor friends?
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:40 AM   #7
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

If you watch the clip the cameras are down at ground level and, since this is the last hand, it is likely that in the excitement they didn't get the hole cards on camera... It also kindof looks like the shots were added post production and, since I believe Binion's was paying for the editing and filming, I'm sure the highest amount of care wasn't put into the production...

ESPN was just supplied with the video and played them as free filler in non-peak times... Watch Cheap Seats (they used this WSOP in one episode I believe) some time for good examples of crap that WSOP put on the air as filler material back then... Its would be nice if it showed Hamilton cheating but I personally doubt that it this was the case and isn't like we really need any new examples to know what kind of scum he is...

Cliffnotes: I'm guessing that the overheads of the cards were added later in production and the production was put together sloppily and without much care...
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Old 06-12-2009, 01:17 PM   #8
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

What Aaron said ^^^
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Old 06-12-2009, 01:38 PM   #9
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

Ahh, comon. That explanation makes way too much sense. Knives and pitchforks everybody!
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Old 06-12-2009, 02:23 PM   #10
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

im unaware, whats the history behind this guy? what did he do?
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Old 06-12-2009, 05:26 PM   #11
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

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im unaware, whats the history behind this guy? what did he do?
He was behind the superuser accounts on AP and UB.

He also gained a bunch of weight before this WSOP because the main event winner got his weight in silver, although that's pretty smart.
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Old 06-12-2009, 09:06 PM   #12
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

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Originally Posted by otatop View Post
He was behind the superuser accounts on AP and UB.

He also gained a bunch of weight before this WSOP because the main event winner got his weight in silver, although that's pretty smart.
There's "smart"... and then there's "unethical" and "immoral". It's said he actually loaded himself up with 4000 half-dollar coins at the weigh-in just like a Palestinian would strap himself up with bombs... but Binions caught on and made him lose the coins first. LOL I mean, if this doesn't tell you the guy would cheat, rob and steal blind his own mother or his best friends... nevermind YOU, the unsuspecting AP/UB player... then what would?

I'm a misfit in the poker world obv. Many probably laugh at the story and think to themselves "hell, I'd do that too, it's def smart!!!!!!"

P.S. I still don't understand this video, I don't buy the "bad post-production" excuses because of what the announcers and floorperson say *LIVE* on the tape during the video... was that all added in post-production too?
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Old 06-12-2009, 09:31 PM   #13
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

i dont like russ hamilton
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:31 PM   #14
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

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i dont like russ hamilton
how much did he swindle u for? or am i being too rude by asking? were you ever "recompensated"?
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Old 06-13-2009, 04:49 AM   #15
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

come on you guys havent you hounded this poor guy enough?
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:28 AM   #16
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

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Originally Posted by slickmick777 View Post
come on you guys havent you hounded this poor guy enough?
Really? This "poor guy"?

I still cannot figure out a scenario of cards that makes sense given what is said during the video.

Also notice how the VERY FIRST HAND Russ shakes is...

...the dealer's? wtf????? Isn't that kinda weird? Russ obv knows the dude imo... and that makes me wonder...

How many WSOP ME champions shake hands with the dealer immediately after winning the last hand? Or ANY high stakes tournament?????
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:38 AM   #17
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

i dont know if this has been mentioned before but the shots where we see the players' card really look to have been added after the event. if you look closely the cards aren't even laid out in the same way from shot to shot.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:29 AM   #18
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

The close up on the hands was definitely added in post production. If you watch the clip full screen you can see this most clearly when they show the closeup of Hamilton's hand. In the wide shot at about 1:00 Hamilton tables his hand with the cards clearly spaced apart horizontally, however, when they show the close-up on the cards at about 1:05 the cards are horizontally together with the 8h vertically above the Ks. This is relevant to the multiple 8c discussion because in the closeup of Vincent's hand the cards are in the same odd position of being horizontally together, but one card vertically above the other. You can kind of see Vincent's hand spaced apart horizontally in the wide shot, but it's a lot more clear with Hamilton's hand.

The live commentary doesn't fit with the hands either. The TD clearly says that Vincent needs two spades, but in the closeups it shows Hamilton as the one with the runner runner spade draw.

IMO you can chalk this one up to the low production values of the show.
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Old 06-16-2009, 10:21 AM   #19
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

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Originally Posted by Moneyline View Post
The close up on the hands was definitely added in post production. If you watch the clip full screen you can see this most clearly when they show the closeup of Hamilton's hand. In the wide shot at about 1:00 Hamilton tables his hand with the cards clearly spaced apart horizontally, however, when they show the close-up on the cards at about 1:05 the cards are horizontally together with the 8h vertically above the Ks. This is relevant to the multiple 8c discussion because in the closeup of Vincent's hand the cards are in the same odd position of being horizontally together, but one card vertically above the other. You can kind of see Vincent's hand spaced apart horizontally in the wide shot, but it's a lot more clear with Hamilton's hand.

The live commentary doesn't fit with the hands either. The TD clearly says that Vincent needs two spades, but in the closeups it shows Hamilton as the one with the runner runner spade draw.

IMO you can chalk this one up to the low production values of the show.
I agree the overhead shots were added post-production. That much I am convinced of.

My problem lies with the fact that I cannot find ANY hand for Hugh Vincent that fits with what the commentators say about the flop being unsuited, and the floor announcer saying Hugh can win with two spades.

So I guess we just have to leave it at that, the incorrect cards are shown on the overhead AND either the commentators or the announcer made an awful mistake about either the wetness/dryness of the flop or about what Hugh needs to win the hand???

I'm just surprised this doesn't bother anyone else like it bothers me. I didn't lose money on AP/UB thank goodness, so I have no axe to grind with Russ from a personal standpoint. I just think this is a really really weird situation.

Having said all that, if nobody else sees fit to question it after 14 years, I guess I should just let it go too.
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:06 AM   #20
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

lol how baller is that old dude eating hamburgers!
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Old 08-08-2009, 03:02 PM   #21
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

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Originally Posted by Alizona View Post
I agree the overhead shots were added post-production. That much I am convinced of.

My problem lies with the fact that I cannot find ANY hand for Hugh Vincent that fits with what the commentators say about the flop being unsuited, and the floor announcer saying Hugh can win with two spades.
Why couldn't Hugh have 8 5? Seems to fit all of the things said. The board is 8 6 2, Hamilton's hand is K 8.
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:33 AM   #22
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

Amazing to me that some think that just because every player on this earth wasn't cheated by Hamilton, it is somehow "all right," or not that bad. A scumbag is a scumbag whether he cheats you personally, or a total stranger.
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Old 08-09-2009, 04:28 AM   #23
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

what particularly floor announcer does say? It's still obscure for me, even though I've been listening to that for a while. So what actually announcer says? As I recognized that is:
Hugh needs a couple of spades, a couple (something that's unclear for me)... to the straight-draw or five.
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Old 08-09-2009, 06:40 AM   #24
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

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Originally Posted by slickmick777 View Post
come on you guys havent you hounded this poor guy enough?
level
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Old 08-09-2009, 06:54 AM   #25
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Re: Final hand of '94 WSOP - Hamilton vs Vincent

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Originally Posted by Arty G. View Post
what particularly floor announcer does say? It's still obscure for me, even though I've been listening to that for a while. So what actually announcer says? As I recognized that is:
Hugh needs a couple of spades, a couple (something that's unclear for me)... to the straight-draw or five.
I´d say it is: Hugh needs a couple of spades, a couple runners to a straight or a five, right now. That would also fit in with helens suggestion ...
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