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Old 12-26-2013, 05:49 AM   #1
beaufourd
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Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

http://www.pokerstars.tv/channels/20...pisode-2.shtml

hand starts at 21:20

at 26:45 you can listen to the germans discuss the hand, and then the 2 players involved in the hand.

Daniel says himself he has no problem pretending to misclick in this spot (although he didn't admit if in this case it was a misclick), pretty questionable behaviour imo especially from one of poker's ambassadors.

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Last edited by PokerTube; 01-10-2014 at 10:05 AM. Reason: Embedded specific hand
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:48 PM   #2
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Just came here to post about it. Couldn't believe what i was hearing...

Negreanu trying to say angle shooting is part of the game? lol.

The guy needs to ****ing retire
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Old 12-26-2013, 04:33 PM   #3
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Massive LOLed at Stapes "When someone else misclicks on purpose, it's an angleshoot, but when Daniel does it, it's adorable? Ok Daniel Freitez". Nice reference.

Watching the hand, it looked fine. It certainly seemed like just a mistake, but then when he talks about it after the hand and implies that he may have done it on purpose seems really shady.
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Old 12-26-2013, 07:23 PM   #4
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Well, whether or not this instance was a misclick or an angle shoot, DNeg's saying that the angle shoot's a part of his bag of tricks. He's saying that it's part of the game and the responsibility of the opponent to figure out whether he's honest or angle shooting. It's a pretty scummy move and surprising coming from the face of PokerStars...
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Old 12-26-2013, 07:37 PM   #5
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Can we see this moved into NVG? I feel like it's kind of a big deal... Don't want this thread to fade into obscurity and would like to hear what others have to say about it
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Old 12-26-2013, 07:44 PM   #6
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

It was definatly an angleshoot. If it was a "missclick" he wouldn't instantly start talking about it.
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Old 12-26-2013, 08:31 PM   #7
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Ah, glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this was threadworthy.
There's little doubt in my mind it was an angleshoot, I rewinded the moment where he counts out his chips a few times (before the hand even finished, so before I heard any commentary) and I already thought something was up and it wasn't a genuine misclick.
Then with all the commentary afterwards I'm completely convinced he was angleshooting.

Disgusting IMO, especially from someone who markets himself as a niceguy poker ambassador. Really glad to hear Stapes call him out on it, too.
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:33 PM   #8
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Knowing Daniel, I really don't think it was intentional. Just my gut reaction from watching the clip.

That being said, I don't think it's a problem to occasionally misclick intentionally. You misclick enough for real that if you're never allowed to do it intentionally because it's "scummy," you're giving away too much. In fact, the people who are considered most ethical are giving away the most EV because people will be able to trust their misclicks as genuine with greater certainty than those who are considered less ethical. Thus, people can play better against those people and capitalize more on their mistakes, which is a huge problem. You have to be allowed to balance and keep people guessing, IMO.

Was it scummy or unethical for Zugwat to shove a hand he would normally never shove 100BB+ with because he was trying to capitalize? If not, then I don't really see the difference.

Flame away.
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:42 PM   #9
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

I have almost zero live experience, but can someone explain to me what is wrong with Daniel's actions? As an outside spectator looking from the inside, I see (what I know understand as) angle-shooting to simply be another area of live tells.

In my opinion, pretending to "misclick" is no different than giving away any other glaringly obvious, misleading live tells (like fluttering your eyes when you have a monster) except I can imagine that it is much harder to "sell" a misclick as it seems a little too unlikely to actually happen. After watching that, I would like to nominate Daniel for a grammy! I feel like if I was at that table with a top professional like Daniel, I would instantly recognize that even IF Daniel did "misclick", he wouldn't instantly start laughing like a little school girl and pointing it out to everyone. Daniel was practically begging for a shove. That must have been some excellent acting AND timing!
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:53 PM   #10
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by fslexcduck View Post
Knowing Daniel, I really don't think it was intentional. Just my gut reaction from watching the clip.

That being said, I don't think it's a problem to occasionally misclick intentionally. You misclick enough for real that if you're never allowed to do it intentionally because it's "scummy," you're giving away too much. In fact, the people who are considered most ethical are giving away the most EV because people will be able to trust their misclicks as genuine with greater certainty than those who are considered less ethical. Thus, people can play better against those people and capitalize more on their mistakes, which is a huge problem. You have to be allowed to balance and keep people guessing, IMO.
Apart from the fact that I really don't agree you should be allowed to angleshoot for balance, how can you say it happens enough for real? I haven't heard about this very often, and personally can only remember once seeing a televised misclick in a tourney, also by Negreanu (that one very much seemed legit, though).
I should point out I've never played a live tourney though, so maybe it happens more often than I think.

Quote:
Was it scummy or unethical for Zugwat to shove a hand he would normally never shove 100BB+ with because he was trying to capitalize? If not, then I don't really see the difference.
You don't see a difference between a player capitalising on another player's mistake, and somebody intentionally acting in a way (including his speech) to pretend he made an honest mistake, to gain an advantage?

Because then we have clearly different definitions of angleshooting.

This move reminded me of Tony G shoving AK in a cash game and telling Phil Helmuth multiple times he didn't look at his cards, causing Phil to call with AJ.

Same level of scumminess (if that's a word) IMO.
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:55 PM   #11
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by fslexcduck View Post
Knowing Daniel, I really don't think it was intentional. Just my gut reaction from watching the clip.

That being said, I don't think it's a problem to occasionally misclick intentionally. You misclick enough for real that if you're never allowed to do it intentionally because it's "scummy," you're giving away too much. In fact, the people who are considered most ethical are giving away the most EV because people will be able to trust their misclicks as genuine with greater certainty than those who are considered less ethical. Thus, people can play better against those people and capitalize more on their mistakes, which is a huge problem. You have to be allowed to balance and keep people guessing, IMO.

Was it scummy or unethical for Zugwat to shove a hand he would normally never shove 100BB+ with because he was trying to capitalize? If not, then I don't really see the difference.

Flame away.
pretty much exactly this. good post.
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Old 12-27-2013, 12:12 AM   #12
beaufourd
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by fslexcduck View Post
Knowing Daniel, I really don't think it was intentional. Just my gut reaction from watching the clip.

That being said, I don't think it's a problem to occasionally misclick intentionally. You misclick enough for real that if you're never allowed to do it intentionally because it's "scummy," you're giving away too much. In fact, the people who are considered most ethical are giving away the most EV because people will be able to trust their misclicks as genuine with greater certainty than those who are considered less ethical. Thus, people can play better against those people and capitalize more on their mistakes, which is a huge problem. You have to be allowed to balance and keep people guessing, IMO.

Was it scummy or unethical for Zugwat to shove a hand he would normally never shove 100BB+ with because he was trying to capitalize? If not, then I don't really see the difference.

Flame away.
When I first watched the clip I thought Daniel had misclicked. But watching it again, I'm almst 100% certain it was done on purpose. He grabs like a stack of blues AND picks up a 25k chip, then immediately makes a "frustration" sound. Looking at Gruissem and Duhamel, I think they knew the whole time what was going on, even before Silverman shipped it.

Daniel talking about it later pretty much confirms it, he seemed really happy with himself. Silverman must have just thought that Daniel would never ever be angle shooting with his reputation so based on that went all in.

If you want to defend Daniel that's fine. But if Daniel is allowed to do this, then pretty much all angle shots are fair game, including what Freitez did.

I personally just don't think that kind of poker should be played, ESPECIALLY at a prestigious event such as a high roller event, that consists of only elite respected pros, and a few businessmen. This event is supposed to be top level pros playing top level poker, not angle-shooting each other.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:08 AM   #13
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

I know it's a miss, but where's the click?
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:31 AM   #14
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

DN is a douche but lol @ fake misclicking being an angleshoot. Fwiw, thought DN┤s acting job was pretty piss poor, if he legit misclicked he probably would have thrown a tantrum, blamed the TD and gone all in the next hand...
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:33 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beaufourd View Post

If you want to defend Daniel that's fine. But if Daniel is allowed to do this, then pretty much all angle shots are fair game, including what Freitez did.
This.

If you think what Negreanu did was fine, then what Freitez did is also fine.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:47 AM   #16
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

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Originally Posted by SirRawrsALot View Post
This.

If you think what Negreanu did was fine, then what Freitez did is also fine.
Not even close to being the same thing.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:57 AM   #17
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Not even close to being the same thing.
It's exactly the same thing.

Frietez announced "raise" as he threw in a call, then acted like he only meant to call.

Negreanu threw in "45k" then acted like he only meant to make it 9k

It's the same thing. They both (let's assume Negreanu did it on purpose) intentionally made a mistake and acted like it was unintentionally in an attempt to get action. How are those two hands so different?
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Old 12-27-2013, 10:17 AM   #18
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

If you intentionally misclick and then make a show about what a mistake you made, it is an angle.

If you intentionally misclick and don't say a word about it and don't react to any comments from other players, then it is completely fine.

Surprised a bit by Vanessa's post. I first did not realise t was her posting and when she compared this to Silverman shoving his KJs, I thought it is some clueless Negreanu fanboy posting.
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Old 12-27-2013, 10:32 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarmaker View Post
If you intentionally misclick and then make a show about what a mistake you made, it is an angle.

If you intentionally misclick and don't say a word about it and don't react to any comments from other players, then it is completely fine.

Surprised a bit by Vanessa's post. I first did not realise t was her posting and when she compared this to Silverman shoving his KJs, I thought it is some clueless Negreanu fanboy posting.
The problem with this is that if you do happen to accidentally misclick you might not be silent about it. A fake misclick prevents you from being taken advantage of the times that you make an accidental misclick. Nothing he did is wrong here, imo
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Old 12-27-2013, 10:53 AM   #20
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

So... you are saying that one should always make a show about his misclicks in order to have his misclicks balanced?

That is some serious poker right there.
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:19 PM   #21
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Yes, IMO, that's exactly right.

Let's say misclicks are "known angle shooting." You have person A, regarded as highly moral and ethical in the community. They misclick on a button raise, you know it's never fake because person A would never do that, then goodbye 11 or however many big blinds. Then you have person B, a known scumbag (purely hypothetical, I can't think of ANY known scumbags in the poker world...) so this person misclicks. You know it's a scummy move but person B is known to do things like that. You can't reshove light on them bc chances are too high it's a fake misclick.

That case would be a big problem IMO. The last thing we need is more reasons to disincentivize being a good person in the poker world.

And yeah I think making a show of it or whatever you do when you really misclick is totally fine. When I misclick I often let out a "whoops" or something, so that's what I'll do when it's fake. If Daniel makes a show of it when he makes an honest mistake (not hard to believe -- this is Daniel, after all), then that's what he should do. WowLucky is spot on here IMO.

To the person who compared this to Freitez - that totally misses the mark. When it becomes possible to accidentally say call when you mean raise and accidentally temporarily forget your English just with this word specifically, then maybe you'll have a point. Until then, you just don't.
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:21 PM   #22
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Switching gears a bit, what's Silverman's best play here? DNeg is like 110bb deep, and he opened the button to 11bb, whether on accident or on purpose. If you don't want to flat OOP, wouldn't it be better to click it back and see whether DNeg likes his hand or not, rather than risking 110bb on a resteal?
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:44 PM   #23
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by fslexcduck View Post
Let's say misclicks are "known angle shooting." You have person A, regarded as highly moral and ethical in the community. They misclick on a button raise, you know it's never fake because person A would never do that, then goodbye 11 or however many big blinds.
Would a highly moral and ethical player lie to a floor person in order to get his way? He looks and sounds like a child who is trying to hide something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLyaQCkyZKE
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:57 PM   #24
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

why is exploiting a misclick ethical but faking one unethical?

Like the only reason the fake misclick is unfair at all is due to people attempting to take advantage of an honest person's honest mistakes. If you just treat them all as if they were intentional you never have to worry about being the victim of fake misclicks. Not that I'm saying you should as I don't think taking advantage of misclicks is unethical, but saying that is ethical yet faking misclicks is unethical is just crazy imo.
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Old 12-27-2013, 04:19 PM   #25
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Re: Daniel Negreanu with the angle shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnieYX View Post
Switching gears a bit, what's Silverman's best play here? DNeg is like 110bb deep, and he opened the button to 11bb, whether on accident or on purpose. If you don't want to flat OOP, wouldn't it be better to click it back and see whether DNeg likes his hand or not, rather than risking 110bb on a resteal?
Agree with this, risking 110 bb is pretty pointless.

Gruissem was saying calling was best, but its easy to get blown off your hand if you miss, and you won't have any info on Daneils hand.

3bet>call>ship it imo
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