(this is playing 2/5)

I almost always make money when I go to play poker yet instead of getting up and cashing on my big win, I continue to play and by the end of the night have lost it all. I play fairly tight, but I also Am not hesitant at all to put my money in in +ev situations so I will draw out on you sometimes, but never really suckout (unless I truely thought I had the best hand ony to find out it's second best and then hit the river or something). Anyway, I hardly ever lose my money straight out. Usually I'll build my buyin up a fair amount early on and then I make a stupid bluff that costs me $300-400 bucks or get involved in a big hand and hve the second best or will have to fold on the turn, miss my draw with $300 or so of my chips in the pot, then it kinda just goes downhill from there. Although hindsight is 50/50 I can always kinda tell when I should probably cashout due o carols reasons but never do and just keep playing.

How do your get yourself up from the table?

ps. I'm planning on trying this. Let's say I run 200 up to 750 I say, no matter what, when that stack gets below 600 I'm leaving. I could post my blif and have $599 and have to leave or I could lost a pot, be down to 375 and I'd still leave.

Um ... don't do stupid bluffs that cost you 300-400 would be a good start.

If you feel yourself tilting ... just get up. If you still want to play poker, then go for a walk/smoke, or even go eat. Most places will let you leave your chips there for at least 2 orbits ... which takes days in live 2-5games.

This (besides bankroll/tilt management) is the hardest thing to do well in poker, and is so important.

Your going to hear a bunch of different answers, but most people would say while you are still on your A game, and still are in a +EV situation at the table.

Barry Greenstein in Ace on the River would have some hard and fast rules when he grinded all night long, if he had more than two fresh people sit down he would immediately get up, especially if he had been up all night long.

I would say play as deep stacked as you are comfortable at cash games, if you are not comfortable putting in a 800 plus stack on a lower limit table, cash out, take a break and re buy with profit and play again.

For finding the optimal time to get up, there is no right answer. Having winning stop losses is just as important as having losing stop losses. There is nothing then feeling worse than when you donk off say a $1G of profit, versus saying just having a losing session.

It's not tht it's necessary a bad bluff, it's that it gets called. It seems logical to say "then why even bluff at all, ever". That is also silly because of course you have to bluff. You wontmake any money if everyone knows you're a tight nit. Well the catch is, I'm really young, so people think I'm a wild mofo anyway. So I really think I can get alway with not blufing at all. I also really don't tilt. I've played enough hands online to be pretty over being upset about suck outs and what not, it's poker crazy ****ing **** happens. It's just probabilities. Eventually, you will get bent over and railed by one outers back to back or worse. I can't stand the players that butch about that. WTF game do you think yor playing??!

I've developed a whole series of rules that enable me to cash out ahead. But before I get into them, you need to answer some questions.

In particular, you need to map out from start to finish your winning and losing days.

How were you winning? Did you win an insane $1K pot by spiking a set against 3 players who had hands and were giving you action? Or were your earnings more consistent/steady 1/2 buy-in per hour rate, etc.

How was your mental state? Were you wired from a big win, were you calm, were you ambivalent, were you bored, tired, etc. etc

How was your table image? Were you a rock, a maniac, a luckbox, etc.

How was your table demeanor? Were you talkative, quiet, antagonistic, passive, etc.

What is your biggest win at this level?

What is your biggest CASH OUT? Why did you leave the table in this particular instant? Did the wife call at the opportune time forcing you to leave? Did an external factor make you leave or did you leave on your own?

In a nutshell, you need to chart and map out everything poker related in both your winning and losing sessions.

Now, i've done this and more ( I keep a poker journal) and the results have translated into the following series of rules for me.

#1 Leave Immediately if I get tired
#2 Cash out after 10 hrs of play (this is my endurance limit, playing beyond that puts my stack at risk ESPECIALLY when playing NL)
#3 Cash out when my stack is 2 times greater than all opponents combined
#4 Once I'm way ahead, I institute a safeguard, that is, if I backslide 1.5 buy-ins, I just leave
#5 Cash out when i've won 15 times buy-in (this for some reason seems to be my cieling)
#6 Cash out the second I make a horrendous crack smoking donkey play as this is an indicator i'm not in the right state of mind to be playing poker and or am tired.
#7 Take a 5 minute break every 75 minutes and analyze play, goals, earnings, state of mind, etc and reassess the day's objectives.
#8 Once i'm way ahead, nit the f**k up and play super rock solid poker.

Now, cashing out is all about habit. You have to make leaving with money a habit. One way I do this is to cash out IMMEDIATELY. No last hand, no waiting till my blind, playing because I have an uneven stack, etc. etc.

in fact, when i'm racking up and the dealer deals me two cards, I don't even bother looking at them.

What this does is reinforce the discipline of cashing out. That is, giving yourself power over poker and that you will leave on YOUR terms.

The more you do this, the easier it is to cash out.

I don't subscribe to formulas for staying or leaving based on results. Poker should be looked at as a perpetual endeavor of an aggregate of hands played over your lifetime. So I say, leave when ever you feel like it's right for you for any reason. Listen to your intuition and do the right thing, not some lame arbritary formula.

Having said that, my guess is that you are being a bit delusional about your results by confusing the fact that you win a pot and are ahead one moment as proof you are beating the game, and then blaming the fact that you stay too long with the cause of you losing it back later in the night. Maybe you play scared once you build a stack and change your game.

.. are you drinking? Or getting tired?

Last poster is correct - you don't play well late into a session, so leave when you start playing poorly (figure out how to know)

This is exactly why it is very very VERY important to dissect your poker sessions to understand your game.

One thing that i've found is crucial to maintaining your chip stack is the ability to switch gears....

anyways, point being. You need to look at, dissect, analyze, and take apart your game (to include your chip stack vs. play) to figure out and understand when and how to leave. You should notice some patterns.

This made me laugh. The "I'll play to my blind" round has simply got to be the most money losing endeavor in history.

Nowadays, if I had to decide between playing poker between the time I decided it was time to go and my blind, or going and playing roulette with my whole net worth on the double zero every time, I'd have to seriously think about it.

If you have played well for 3-5 hours and have been lucky enough to get in hands with the dead money players and are up 5-6 hundo, are you willing to play another 3-5 hours if you get coolered and lose half or all of your profit?....if your happy to do that and the game is still good keep playing ....if it makes you happier to take your profit and possibly cap a winner then do that...

I go with the Tommy Angelo theory of whatever makes me happier...

If you quit every time you're up big time, you're looking and feeling good. If you keep playing, variance catches up with you. The thing is that variance will catch up with you anyway, even if you cash out every time you're up, so if you're playing good and the game is good, whatever. People seem to think their supposed "win rate" is equivalent to them cashing out every time they're up, and never booking any losses. In fact your win rate is probably far more modest, but many are loathe to admit that they're not making umpteen friggin' bzillion bb/hour.

al

I struggle with this as well. I only play when I have no obligation to leave within the next 24 hours, so I will find all sorts of excuses to keep playing. Sometimes it's to get to some invented threshold of profit or even dollar amount, sometimes it's to play to the blinds (which usually ends up in some little pot that takes me below the threshold), sometimes it's because I feel guilty about winning a big pot.

Some good advice in this thread, I just need to choose how to apply it. I like the idea about not playing to the blinds. So much can happen in those 8 hands that will sway my decision about leaving. Sometimes the only time I don't change my mind about leaving is when I fold all 8 hands, which is the same thing as just leaving.

I always quit after a big run or so. I find that most of the time you will play very loose and end up bleeding out most of your winnings. I buy in for $200 so a good stopping point for me like 400-500. I'll stand up, cash out, walk around the casino, grab some food, and come buy back in for $200 again later. That way If i go broke.. i still have some winnings left.

I always play with a friend, we usually take cig/drink break every 30-45 minutes. It's good to have someone watching your back to tell you when you step up because 1. you're up enough or 2. you're tilting hard.

When I first read the thread title, I thought this thread was going to be a lame re-hash of the usual "you should stay if the game is good and you're playing well; you should leave if the game is bad or you're playing poorly" responses to this question.

I am pleasantly surprised. Thanks dgi for the great post early in the thread.

I'm not afraid to admit that I struggle with the OP's issue as well. But these days I have found that if I set a general time limit on how long I want to play and then take a 15-min break to relax and reassess, that works very well for me. If I decide to go back to the table, I'll set another general time limit so I rinse and repeat.

Ooooo. Jr-rrama!! With a "j" and three r's!

With your talent for exaggeration, we could find some use for you yet!!

I'd suggest craps tho over roulette. Hard eight, buddy. If you're in St Louis this weekend and you keep hearing "two-way hard eight" you might want to check and see if someone with a fish hat and combat boots (army issue) is playing craps.

al

+1

These are usually the most contentious issues. OP, realize that poker is about making money, yes, but ultimately it's about personal happiness. Winning generally makes people happy, but if you're on a downswing, it might be worth more in terms of personal happiness to lock up a small win and leave feeling good than to keep playing at a great table (potentially hitting a bad beat and becoming really unhappy at a small loss).

There's a level at which you should cash out because if you lose significantly from that point on, you're going to tilt or life-tilt. Only you can decide that value, but dgiharris' rules above are good examples.

General Rule #1: Leave whenever you're not playing your A game.
- if you're losing and tilting
- if you're tired
- if you're winning and spewing
- if you're drunk
- if you hit a pre-arranged stop-loss
- if you're distracted by the dealer's huge rack (not chip rack)
- if your girlfriend just called you and chewed you out for playing poker again instead of going to dinner with her parents
- etc.

General Rule #2: Leave whenever you've maximized your personal happiness for the day.
- if you've hit a milestone that you'd like to cherish
- if you'd be mad if you lost what you won
- if you've hit a pre-arranged stop-gain

General Rule #3: Leave if you can't beat the game
- if the fish leave
- if sharks move in
- if the game is too slow
- if the game is too fast

I have told you a billion times - I don't exaggerate.




Will do, but please clarify: Is that a hat to fish in, a hat with a picture of a fish on it, or an actual hat made out of an actual fish?




TIA.

I think this is funny that you think playing back to the blind is a losing endeavor. How can it be -EV to not see "free" hands? Just curious, do you play the blinds before going to the restroom or taking a break?

This is good. Only one thing to add. If you reach #8 on this list....leave.

If the height of your stack is dictating your play your not playing optimally. In other words your playing not to lose instead of playing to win.

I do this often, get up big and find my self in lock down mode when I know I should be a little more active. That's my cue to book the win and move out. When I'm racking, I'm out, no next hand.

i used to do that a lot when i first started playing. i got some really good advice from an older card player columnist a few years ago. he said regardless of how much you've won, when you lose back $100 just get up, cash out and go home and do this until you've got better control. i used that advice and it really helped me get a hand on losing back significant winnings

taking breaks are important. you gotta cool off at times. over the years, ive found one of the most +EV tools for my game and the most -EV tool for my health is smoking cigarettes. it forces you to take breaks so it gives you time to get your head straight and analyze how youre really doing.

If you have to ask the question, in my opinion there is only one answer: set specific time limits. The end of one session flows into the start of the next one; it makes little sense to set up (or down) limits unless you have so little self-knowledge that you *need* to be told to get up when you are playing badly.

Of course you should get up and go home if you think you are playing badly. But, if you are playing well there's no reason to WAIT until you notice that you've started to play badly.

When you sit down, set a time when you will push back. And then do it.

yes, yes,...the game may be great, two known fish may have just sat down, etc. I really don't think that matters nearly as much as developing the discipline to play for a fixed amount of time. I know from experience that when I manage to do that, my results are much, much better than when I violate the pre-set time limit "because the game is so good", or "because I'm stuck and want to get some back", or "I'm up so much I must be playing really well, let's milk it for some more".


Actually, there's one other rule that can save you a LOT of money: when you look at the clock and think "I really should go, soon" - IT'S TIME TO GO, NOW! Just push back, rack up, and leave. Most people (myself included) play terribly in that last half hour. As soon as the thought crosses your mind "when should I leave", the answer is "now". Trust me.

Do you want me to answer that? Just curious why you were wondering/assuming this. I think this is much more a problem for winning players than losing players. Losing players go to the casino and lose thier money, they don't even get a chance to analyze at what point during their session they should cash outunless it's their luckbox night.

But yea, that's the sad thing- I am a winning player, but am just ****ting all over my potential by having this major leak. It's killing me. My be would be 10 times as big if i got up a third of the time web I tell myself I should while I at the table.

maybe because of this:

anyway, my 2 cents: if you are a winning player it shouldnt matter how much youre up or down, if the table is good keep playing (even if you lose), if the table (or your condition) is bad get up (even if youre winning).

i still set myself a limit of 3 buyins to lose, because you might not recognize youre being outplayed (or even cheated, dont know where youre playing).

i highly recommend reading tommy angelos book or listening to his series at deucescracked, he has worked a lot on this part of the game.

Sounds good, I'll have to check it out.

I also agree that it's great that this thread progressed past the overly stated "stay if the table is good" nonsense. There have been many wellthoughout posts and I hope this thread continues to develop, because I think there is a lot to be said about how players handle this.