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Old 09-15-2017, 07:46 AM   #1
BlackClaw
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QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

Live Tournament; Blinds 1200/2400:
Bigstack raises early, mid position shoves...
Bigstack openraised from time to time as would any bigstack do, MP4 plays solid, no additional information.

MP1: 300'000 (125 bb)
MP2: xxxx
MP3: xxxx
MP4: 40'000 (16.6 bb)
BTN: xxxx
SB: xxxx
Hero (BB): 190'000 (79.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q Q
MP1 raises to 6'000, MP4 moves allin with 40'000, Hero ?
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Old 09-15-2017, 05:52 PM   #2
N4zgul
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

How many players get paid or how big are the payjumps? Also what's your stacksize relative to the rest?
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Old 09-15-2017, 08:13 PM   #3
BlackClaw
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

Bubble was still some time away and avg. Stack was around 95k.
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Old 09-16-2017, 02:34 PM   #4
N4zgul
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

In my opinion, i wouldn't like to just call and possibly play OOP vs the big stack. Folding seems bad so the only option would be to reshove. I am no expert though and you could use ICMizer to test this situation.
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Old 09-16-2017, 07:43 PM   #5
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

Folding is not an option here, I'd go with call. See what bigstack does and go from there!
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:40 AM   #6
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

So, my opinion is the following:

Fold: I don't think this is an option here either.

Call: I don't like the call very much because it makes playing post flop very difficult. I have no real information about big stacks hand and me calling makes it profitable for him to just call behind with a pretty large handrange.
I would have to play very carefully on a variety of flops and possibly invest more money in order to get to a showdown or a fold of big stack.

Raise: I would love to raise here, but can we really raise and then fold with our stacksize?

Shove: I somehow prefer a shove over the other options because it applies maximal pressure and biggie can only really call with JJ+. Even AKs should be a fold on his side, considering my stacksize (don't forget this is not a 10USD online tourney).
On the other hand, shoving 80BB's is not really appealing at all.

So, am I making a mistake in my thought -process?
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:23 AM   #7
Leia Amidala
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

boys arent you overthinking this one? We have QQ and play 80bb effective vs big stack, and there are only 12 combos out of 1326 who severely dominate us. We obv do well vs shorty. Shoving happily here.
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:39 AM   #8
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

That is what I think, but we had huuge discussions over shoving or calling here... thats why i reach out to the community
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:49 AM   #9
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leia Amidala View Post
12 combos out of 1326 who severely dominate us.
Raiser is utg, I kinda doubt he opens 100% o_O

If we flat here, does UTG really have a "bluffing range" if he jams over us, i.e. one that is both strong enough to get it in vs 16bb 3b and tries to push off some of our flatting hands? Idk, sounds pretty unlikely, I'd flat.
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Old 09-18-2017, 11:58 AM   #10
Leia Amidala
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

so you would flat and then fold vs shove utg? sounds horrible

Last edited by Leia Amidala; 09-18-2017 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 09-18-2017, 12:18 PM   #11
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

Might be horrible, Idk his ranges. What range would u think he is supposed to jam/4b and what does he call?
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Old 09-18-2017, 01:20 PM   #12
BlackClaw
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

In my eyes he can call with pretty much anything he opened in the first place...
Mainly Medium to high suited connectors, any suited ace, any pocket and of course AJo+

If hero jams there, he can only really call with QQ+ maybe TT+ and AKs if he thinks hero is weak for some reason.
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:38 PM   #13
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
In my eyes he can call with pretty much anything he opened in the first place...
Mainly Medium to high suited connectors, any suited ace, any pocket and of course AJo+
Wouldn't that be great to keep these hands in with QQ?

The question is: What range does he 4b/jam if we flat? If that is only like QQ+, then I don't see why we should not flat. Do ppl 4b/jam JJ- and AK there? Not that likely imho.
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Old 09-18-2017, 05:03 PM   #14
Leia Amidala
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

If you think utg is capable of shoving AK/JJ ( which is very much likely) calling and folding vs shove is very bad.

I am not saying that flatting is bad here. I just would not fold vs a shove.
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Old 09-18-2017, 05:46 PM   #15
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

Hm idk, ppl who 5x pot 4b jam AK utg vs a big 3b ai and a flat are likely not so good at poker, so if u have that read u can call off or jam in the first place, no idea what's better
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Old 09-19-2017, 03:35 AM   #16
Leia Amidala
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

16bb is not a big 3bet allin imo. Its rather small. big stack is opening wide, so MP4 range is not crazy, but still pretty wide. So I would def iso here. And still think that flatting and folding vs a shove is pretty bad.

Last edited by Leia Amidala; 09-19-2017 at 03:42 AM.
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:50 AM   #17
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

Spot needs more numbers, ran a gto solution for the matter.
Assumptions:

- all midstacks = 200k
- no openlimping range for utg
- 3b size 16bb
- 4b size all-in
- no ICM ("far from bubble", payout distr. unknown anyway)

Result:
Opening range for UTG: 66 A7s A9o K9s KJo QJs
3b jamming range for CO: 55 AQo AQs KJs QJs
Flatting range for hero: TT AK
4b jamming range for hero: 0%



Addo: If u wonder why some hands appear in mutually exclusive ranges: Mixed strat, x% flat y% raise.
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Old 09-19-2017, 10:02 AM   #18
Leia Amidala
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

nice. but utg open range is waaay too tight imo. dont you think?

and i dont know how HRC models post flop play.
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Old 09-19-2017, 10:15 AM   #19
LeaksSuck
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leia Amidala View Post
nice. but utg open range is waaay too tight imo. dont you think?
Idk who villain is, range sounds reasonable to me, maybe a tad too tight yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leia Amidala View Post
and i dont know how HRC models post flop play.
Not at all (i.e. it assumes checkdowns), otherwise it wouldn't be able to calc anything in time/at all.
But the results are a decent point to start from and then adjust to villains assumed divergence from that.
Thinking a bit further about it this should lead to overestimating UTG range since UTG will play OOP against all opp but the blinds post, thus would have to "expect" less ev than in an environment where everything is checked down.
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:51 AM   #20
Leia Amidala
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

yeah but it makes life for the queens also easier

for a big stack i think its still waaay to tight. i would at least assume:

22+,A8,Axs, All BW, Suited connectors and possible some gappers.
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Old 09-19-2017, 12:53 PM   #21
Leia Amidala
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

for kicks iv loaded this HH in pokersnowie. And this is what it will do:

AA: raise 32% flat rest
AKs: raise 21% flat rest
KK,QQ,JJ: flat
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Old 09-19-2017, 03:37 PM   #22
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Re: QQ preflop with Openraiser and Allin ahead

Nice
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