Mod Edit:
Mod Edit:
Since there seems to be a lot of discussion and confusion about what the book covers well and does not cover so well, this thread can be used for such discussion and more general theory topics related to the book.

I suggest reading some of the original thread with some great review:
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...rt=&PHPSESSID=

Somewhere in between 24% & 100%, likely around 80ish%. The blinds hitting us is an important implication that we have to factor in, so we should definitely be taking some -EV spots, but certainly not with 100%. You can still make a call in the BB, get a walk, or other plays that would be better than shoving absolutely ATC if they are calling wide. ATCs is a good plan of action in this spot.

Also, if Wiz only has you shoving 24%, your likely calling ranges might be too loose with everyone only at 4k each.

Also, IIRC, Wiz isn't so good in these sorts of spots because it doesn't factor in the loss of FE and the position of the blinds. So it might come up with some weird results ocassionally. Also why Wiz isn't the best for some double-or-nothing bubble situations.

Can anyone correct me on this?

like someone said above, taking a slightly -ev shove is better off than folding, since sometimes if you fold you wont find too many more +ev scenarios....id follow wiz but just note spots where a borderline shove is needed

Take any Wiz suggestion in under 5BB situations with a big grain of salt.

So I've read his sit n go book about 4 times over, made about a hundred pages of notes on his example, theory anything (with the exception of high blinds I'm not ready for that info....but do the steals and resteals work as effectively in the low stakes games?

You'd need to be a bit more specific if you want someone to help. Find a few hands (or invent some) that cover the kinds of spots you want to discuss.

One thing you can do is run the spots Moshman discusses in SNG Wiz. There are a couple of spots he suggests resteals that are a bit light. Try them in Wiz, then you can answer for yourself whether his advice is accurate in that area.

Yeah sorry about being vague. What I mean is, given that most people won't read his book, I should have a good edge against the average player and be able to win decently at low stakes games?

Yes, that book will make you a low stakes winner for sure. But like anything, don't take everything as concrete and 100% true. Reading a book like Moshman's is just the first step to being the best SnG player you can be. Start reading, playing, browsing the forums, and you will start to improve.

You should def have an edge at the low stakes games. Winning "decently" can be harder to judge since since the games have a natural variance that we are always dealing with. In the long run you should be a decent winner if you just work on learning this game and getting feedback from better players on spots your unsure about.

Getting a program like wiz is a solid first step in the right direction.

That book alone had me killing the small stakes SnG's. I would highly recommend it to anyone playing SnG's. To answer your question, no steals and resteals wont work as effectively in my opinion just because the players are worse and will call with lighter. You should definitely read the end game part though, esp. on the bubble, it is essential to becoming successful at SnG's.

I'd say definitely but that doesn't make it the bible.

I'd also strongly recommend it for lowstakes beginners. Yeah, the resteal section might get you into trouble, but at least it errs on the aggro side; and the pushing tables are not all that good, but they'll mostly keep you out of trouble at least.

DrZen! Please elaborate on your meaning on Moshman's pushing tables! Are they too loose, too tight?!

They don't consider enough of the variables.

Juk

That link doesn't work for me. Is this the this the thread? (review by Slim Pickens)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/36...927-post12923/

This is exactly it. 5BB at t200 and at t400a25 are really really different. 5BB with nine players is different from 5BB on the bubble. 5bb and everyone else has 15BB minimum isa lot different from 5BB on the bubble and some other guy has 1BB. Shoving from the button into two nits is a world away from shoving into two guys who are drunk and think poker is bingo. The latter alone can make an ATC shove into a supertight one, so that no given range can be even close to right for both situations.

Agree 100%.. The thing is I was thinking of grouping hands by the position and learning how other variables effect by looking at them after one another.. And then take some notes.. Do you think I would be lost trying to take notes and create a big chart including most of the variables?

Yes you would get lost. There are too many variables. If you could make a big chart that covered everything it would be posted on the internet by now. The chart helps but you need knowledge and perception too.

do you guys think that limping in position speculative hands and playing postflop with odds in the early stage of a sng is profitable and a correct strategy?
I think in turbo sng it is not a good strategy..it is better to fold anything but top 5%, limping just pp and going directly to play ICM

I got about halfway through his book about 2 years ago and couldn't even finish it. I was already a winning SNG player at the time, but I felt a lot of what he spoke of was vague and he didn't give reasons for why you are supposed to do what he was telling you what to do. He clearly knows what he was talking about, but I felt that the way he explained a lot of his material was simply not thorough enough.

I had subscribed to pokerxfactor for a number of months prior to reading this book. I just felt like Sheets analysis went deeper into what should be done. The only thing I took from his book was a different way to look at chip equity. I enjoyed the way he explained mathematically why taking a counflip on the first hand is negative for the two players in the hand and a positive for the other players in the SNG.

Disclaimer, it has been a long time (~1 year) since I read this book.

Some of Moshman's advice imo is pretty lol... granted it may not adapt well from levels higher than I play. For example open folding low pps early, and not setmining is a humongous leak at the levels I play. Also open limping strong hands from EP is also a big mistake imo. Start posting hands where you limp KK from UTG and wait for the flames you get.

The pushbot charts are a decent start imo. The trick with using them is to use them as 'training wheels' while you review your HH's in Wiz after that fact, to see when to break from the 'I have XXs shipit' chart play. These charts obviously do not account for the calling ranges of the players behind you, nor the stack sizes or bubble situations going on, which can make the ranges woefully inaccurate.

I do not like all of the shove over HBL advice in this book. I think that most likely at the time this book was printed, the games were slightly different than they are now. There are tons of bad players that call these short stack shoves extremely light due to the number of players who have this in their arsenal. I would not suggest using this move unless you have done a fair amount of looking at these spots in Wiz, as they will often end in disaster.

If you play decent poker, I think it is fine. I tend to stack off light, so I have to be very careful about the hands I play early. If you are bad about chasing FD/SDs with bad odds, you are better off folding these hands.

SUMMARY
All in all, it is a good foundation, and I am glad that I read this book when I started to take SNGs semi-seriously. I would recommend it to new players, but you just need to understand that the games have changed some what... so not all of the advice is relevant imo.

CastleBravo,

Thanks for the summary. I've just been starting to play SnG again and picked his book back up. I know there have been complaints about the quality of Moshman's work, but it's difficult to know what to take away as gospel and what to ignore. Thanks for posting.

In Moshman's defense, he does a million times better job explaining the early game strategy than Kill Everyone does. Kill Everyone does a much better job of explaining the math of the bubble imo.

Long and short, you can use this book as 'gospel' imo, until you come across situations where the advice just seems wrong and terrible. From there, post the hand and see what you get back from people. Also, looking at hands posted by good players here is also a good way to learn where to break from the 'gospel'.

Glad you liked my review.

i also think that this type of game can be applied only if you play not many tables, max 10x multitabling, not more, what do yuo think about it?

It doesn't matter. Some players can play a lot of tables and play some thin hands. It is all about your personal ability to multitable and the advantages that you need personally to be a winning player.