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STT Strategy Discussion about the play of single table tournaments.

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Old 12-06-2017, 10:14 PM   #1
LoboIX
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JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

I just started playing poker this year and still trying to learn. I decided to play a $1.50 SNG on PokerStars, and I am looking for your thoughts on the very first hand of the game.

Blinds are 10/20 no Ante.

It folds to the HJ who limps. I'm on the button with JTo (with the T of Clubs) and make it $80. SB and HJ both call.

$260 in the pot, flop is 56J with two clubs. SB check, HJ bets $20. I decide to raise to $130 to get anyone of a weak flush draw + I have TP.

$650 in the pot, turn is 6 of clubs. SB bets $100, HJ calls. I imagine one of them is trying to trap with a flush, but I think I'm getting a good price, especially if another club hits on the river.

$950 in the pot, river is an Ace (no club). SB bets $500. HJ calls and I fold.

Thoughts on the hand as played? Or any recommendation on what I should have done differently?

Thanks!
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:43 PM   #2
clapclap
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

you can argue for a limp behind preflop as JTo is quite a weak hand and at 1.50 the blinds wont iso much. i would say QJo is a must iso, T9o is a limp behind and JTo can go either way
postflop wp i would do the same all streets
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:01 AM   #3
fasterlearner
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

Agree with the other guy. limping is good here.

I would raise more on the flop. You need to protect your hand and
charge draws more. Then again I typically raise more than most 2+2
players would.
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:34 PM   #4
Darth_Maul
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoboIX View Post

Blinds are 10/20 no Ante.

It folds to the HJ who limps. I'm on the button with JTo (with the T of Clubs) and make it $80.
Limp behind 100%. Early levels of STTs are all about tight, positional, chip preservation play. Don't spew chips with raises like this.

Quote:
$260 in the pot, flop is 56J with two clubs. SB check, HJ bets $20. I decide to raise to $130 to get anyone of a weak flush draw + I have TP.
These tiny donkbets are pretty much always drawing hands so you have to watch out for the turn card and betting pattern.

Quote:
$650 in the pot, turn is 6 of clubs. SB bets $100, HJ calls. I imagine one of them is trying to trap with a flush, but I think I'm getting a good price, especially if another club hits on the river.
Uh oh, the flush hits and the board pairs and now quiet SB suddenly wakes up and bets into two players who have shown aggression. Big red flag. And HJ calls after donking the flop (remember what I said about tiny donkbets?), another huge red flag. And if you think one of them might have a flush, why are you calling to draw to another club? You don't think one of them has a club higher than the T? You should fold the turn my friend.

Bottom line: you spewed a chunk of your stack in a marginal spot on the first level of an STT. That's a no-no.



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Old 12-07-2017, 03:45 PM   #5
SharkytheFish
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

I don't want to be too critical as you've only started playing recently but this hand is a mess. Fold pre. You don't have a good hand, its the 1st level, you are likely behind one or both your opponents limping ranges and your rarely getting two folds when you raise.
As played call otf. Raising here is really bad. There's fds but it's unlikely both your opponents have one and your mostly folding out worse and getting called by better when you make this flop raise. Your responsible for creating a monster pot here without a monster hand in the 1st blind level. This is not winning sng strategy.
As played the turn call is probably mandatory as your getting bout 6-1. River fold is good but you should never have allowed yourself to get into this spot.
I only scanned the replies but some of them seem pretty I'll advised. Don't limp otb ever.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:02 PM   #6
monkeyheaven
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

I’d play it exactly as you have.
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Old 12-08-2017, 03:26 PM   #7
Fish'n'chips
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

Fold pre. We need to be conservative and tight in the early stages and get more aggressive as the blinds increase. JTo isn't a hand we want any part of this early in the tournament.
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Old 12-08-2017, 03:54 PM   #8
LeaksSuck
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

Can limp behind or raise, think doesn't matter too much. Just don't do this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish'n'chips View Post
Fold pre. We need to be conservative and tight in the early stages and get more aggressive as the blinds increase. JTo isn't a hand we want any part of this early in the tournament.
It's bad, exactly other way round is true: You want to play lots of hands especially IP vs weak players early. They're weak, they make lots of costy mistakes pre and post, you want to profit from that. Don't be a nit
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Old 12-09-2017, 08:37 PM   #9
SharkytheFish
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

It's bad, exactly other way round is true: You want to play lots of hands especially IP vs weak players early. They're weak, they make lots of costy mistakes pre and post, you want to profit from that. Don't be a nit [/QUOTE]

This is true for players who have the skill set to take advantage of weaker players mistakes and fold strong hands when they aren't good. If you are one of the weaker players than playing tight ranges in the early rounds is preferable.
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Old 12-10-2017, 12:52 PM   #10
LeaksSuck
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

I don't think being a nit to avoid IP postflop play vs microstakes players is a legit approach to win dolares at poker
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Old 12-10-2017, 02:40 PM   #11
Darth_Maul
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaksSuck View Post
I don't think being a nit to avoid IP postflop play vs microstakes players is a legit approach to win dolares at poker
Early levels of STTs are the one time where being a nit is the correct approach.

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Old 12-10-2017, 03:57 PM   #12
LeaksSuck
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

I give up, GL at teh pokerz.

Think with sippin_criss there is one guy remaining who might chose to post a helpful comment at times.
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:06 PM   #13
Darth_Maul
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaksSuck View Post
I give up, GL at teh pokerz.

Think with sippin_criss there is one guy remaining who might chose to post a helpful comment at times.
So a post that disagrees with you isn't helpful?

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Old 12-10-2017, 08:21 PM   #14
clapclap
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
Early levels of STTs are the one time where being a nit is the correct approach.

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Can you explain why this is true?
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:08 PM   #15
CC96
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clapclap View Post
Can you explain why this is true?
Because doubling your stack doesn't double your $'s like cash. You could double up in the first level and still not cash.

Personally I would fold this hand pre and play very strong hands or big suited connectors. KQs,QJs,JTs,T9s or pocket pairs to try and hit a nutted hand, then bet bet for value. If you are betting/calling off your stack when the chips you gain will probably not be that detrimental towards the end, then it is really -$ev.

Fish may get an ego boost or feel good about winning so many little pots but I usually take a big one down against somebody overplaying top pair, weak two pair and flush/straight draws.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:10 AM   #16
Darth_Maul
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC96 View Post
Because doubling your stack doesn't double your $'s like cash. You could double up in the first level and still not cash.
This is correct and was mathematically proved many years ago. Because of the prize pool distribution in STTs, the chips you gain early have a negligible impact on your prize pool equity. You actually increase your equity far more by letting other people bust out early than by doubling up. I don't have a good link at my disposal but there's been lots of stuff written about the difference between chip ev and $ ev in STTs.

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Old 12-11-2017, 11:53 AM   #17
CC96
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

Image 1
Image 2

As you can see from the top two images, doubling your stack doesn't necessarily double your $ equity.

For example, if you were playing a $7 SNG on stars and you flipped first hand and won you would gain 14.33% of the prize pool which would be about $5.57. This may sound good but in the long run you are risking $7 to win $5.57 which makes this slightly -EV. Btw you need about 56% for this to be breakeven, however if you have an edge over the table do you want to be risking these chips.

I also find that stealing the blinds a few levels later gets me back to starting stack after playing tight throughout the previous levels.

All in all, if you win a 20bb pot early on with levels 20/10/3 you gain about 400 chips which is 400/9000 = 4% of the chips in play.

Win a 10bb pot later on with levels 120/60/15 you gain about 1200 chips which is 1200/900 = 12% of the chips in play.

Personally for OP I would fold these hands early on and concentrate on trying to get as much money in with your nutted hands QQ+, flushes, straights, sets instead of playing with hands which will most likely give you TPWK and tough spots when playing against aggro fish.

If anybody believes this math is incorrect please let me know as it may help my own game
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Old 12-11-2017, 06:29 PM   #18
SharkytheFish
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Re: JTo OTB - Did I Play It Correctly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaksSuck View Post
I give up, GL at teh pokerz.

Think with sippin_criss there is one guy remaining who might chose to post a helpful comment at times.
Agree that sippin_criss is top class. I'm not advocating playing as a nit across the board and I don't play like that myself in the early blind levels. I do think a tight approach early is the best strategy for new/inexperienced players. As you improve you can widen ranges. It's doesn't have to be tight to the point of being a nit either.
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