Is holding the bubble legal? - MTT Poker Strategy - Multi Table Tournament Poker Forum

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Is holding the bubble legal?

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11-10-2017 , 09:59 AM

Tim Maia

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 234

For example,

STT 9p turbo.
4 people standing.
Hero 22bb
Villain1 1.5bb
Villain2 8bb
Villain3 10bb

Hero is SB, Villain1 (1.5bb) is the BB.
2 folds, hero folds with the intention of holding the bubble, so he can shove any2 on the next two rounds.

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11-10-2017 , 01:22 PM

p2 dog, p2

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 7,536

of course it is legal, if the player folds because he thinks he is maximizing his expectation now or in the future, plenty legal. If he folds because it's his buddy, well......

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11-10-2017 , 01:37 PM

Tim Maia

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 234

Quote:

Originally Posted by p2 dog, p2

of course it is legal, if the player folds because he thinks he is maximizing his expectation now or in the future, plenty legal. If he folds because it's his buddy, well......

That's what I thought, ty

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11-11-2017 , 08:55 AM

Darth_Maul

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 4,434

Let me guess, one of the other players complained?

You have no incentive to bust the bubble there because you can take more chips from the other players while the bubble is alive. They on the other hand have every reason to want you to bust it so they cash.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

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11-11-2017 , 01:32 PM

LeaksSuck

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,859

Yes it's legal, but I get the point of asking cause other stuff that is technically possible within stars software is consider illegal (imo rightly so if it hurts others, like continuous time-bank abuse).

Still pretty idiotic Stars isn't punishing stuff like this with technical measures like automatic time-bank reduction for abuse, would be both less work for them and solve the matter better than investigating, warning/banning players. An on top it keeps things simple: Everything that is possible within the rules of the game/possibilities of the client is legal.

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11-11-2017 , 05:29 PM

clapclap

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 342

so if you take max time every decision, it is illegal? or what do you mean under time bank abuse

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11-11-2017 , 07:55 PM

LeaksSuck

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,859

Yes, that's what some 20-40tabling guys did (not sure if still an issue today with ~4% rb) and it annoyed everyone, especially recreational players. It's just abusive to use 95% of your time for folding 72o utg to be able to play more tables.

Idk, if u do it 1tabling no one will likely care, just makes no sense to and I assume no one does that

Imagine how hard it must suck if a recreational player 1tables a 9m SnG and 3 guys use their timebank every single hand. Prob not gonna play such a format again.

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11-12-2017 , 01:37 PM

NickMPK

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 11,567

I'm a little surprised by the responses here. (And I'm not sure why people are discussing stalling in this thread.)

Deliberately trying to help a shortstacked opponent accumulate chips is collusion, whether there is a preexisting agreement or not.
The exact stack sizes here do not necessarily indicate collusion, but it's pretty close. But if you change them slightly, this is basically the Mike Dentale situation.

Would people's responses change if instead of 1.5 bbs, the BB had .6 bbs, and the SB still folded his .5bb blind?

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11-12-2017 , 04:29 PM

monkeyheaven

adept

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 733

Collusion, by definition, is an agreement between two parties. This situation isn’t collusion.

The Dentale example, if I recall it correctly, was very different; he folded BvB when a microstack shoved on the bubble of a satellite in which he was a chipleader (also, he’d been seen having a conversation with the other party just prior to the hand, also, it’s Dentale). Keeping the microstack alive on satellite bubble gives you no advantage in future hands so his play looks highly suspicious.

If the BB had 0.6bb it would still often be correct to fold in order to benefit from hugely profitable future hands, and would not be collusion.

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11-12-2017 , 06:01 PM

#10

LeaksSuck

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,859

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickMPK

Deliberately trying to help a shortstacked opponent accumulate chips is collusion, whether there is a preexisting agreement or not.

No it is not.
You don't need to and probably will not believe me anyway, so if you really care, just ship the question to stars support and get the same response.

Also the argument that hero is doing this to help the short-stack opponent is just lol. OP does it to max. his own ev including future hands.
Other players always profit or suffer from your decision in non-wta games, that's not collusion but the nature of the game.

What about just turning your argument around:
I say it's "collusion" not to fold, because OP deliberately would be shipping equity to the other players involved in relation to making his optimal decision. :P

Last edited by LeaksSuck; 11-12-2017 at 06:28 PM.

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11-13-2017 , 12:46 AM

#11

ATrainBoston

journeyman

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 384

It’s not like the Dentale situation at all, because Dentale was playing a satellite where the prizes were equal. While in a sit and go it becomes a good strategy to do things which help you gain first, in a satellite that doesn’t matter because first place gains you no extra reward.

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11-13-2017 , 08:49 AM

#12

Tim Maia

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 234

Thank you guys for the responses!

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11-22-2017 , 11:54 AM

#13

LektorAJ

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 7,826

In the Dentale situation the SB was also his buddy's girlfriend (with less than 1BB, he tried to muck his hand anyway from the BB) whereas in this situation presumably you were totally unknown to each other and any of the other players could have ended up being the beneficiary of your self-maximising strategy had the table-draw/tournament played out differently.

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