Interesting stuff

what is your "average opponent"? averages from your database?

I'd never have thought f50s should be that much shoving!

I am using the SitNGo Wizard "average". For example: the average call in the situation above (with 10 players and 9 left to act) was set at 12%. Those calling percentages do change by position.

Good post!

One problem though is assuming that the players will call the same % in both formats as it works both ways: not only can you make many more +EV pushes against the same opponent calling ranges, but also many more +EV calls against the same opponent pushing ranges.

Here is the Nash solution for both game types using the same scenario as you used:

DoN: http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/be...&sb=75&ante=15

Fifty50: http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/be...&sb=75&ante=15

As expected, when you consider the wider +EV calling range, the pusher's range is actually smaller than for DoNs in all corresponding positions.

Even so, your method is fine if the opponents are treating the Fifty50 structure like DoNs and calling far too tight (as I expect will be the case until players get more used to the format / study it more...). I also think this shows that the Fifty50 format will likely make for a better, possibly more long-lived, game that the DoNs as there will be a lot less "mindless" opportunities to push 100% of your hands knowing full well your "thinking" opponents can't make a +EV call with basically anything other than AA...

Juk

Hmm....Hang on. When I quoted the average I did not even consider that they would have different calling ranges. I went back and looked at the "average" DON calling range and it has 6.9%.

I need to do some reading about Nash Equilibrium.

The ranges are extremely sensitive, it`s pretty sick and it will take A LOT of practice to master them.

12% would be pretty wide in a lot of situations. Put them all on something like 9, which is a bit wide for most, but will cover some wide calls from donks as well. We can obviously be slightly wider in EP knowing we're about to get blinded for 20% of our stack even if we have 10BBs over the next couple hands. Looks like it's a lot closer to 9mans until people start calling very wide.

I find these games more like the traditional sng than DoN...
one similarity is that in the bubble, you might want to keep the shorty alive while working to gain more chips
I actually quite like fifty50, mainly because it takes shorter time to finish so you can have more games going for the session.

Some really horrible play from chip leaders with big stacks not realizing they can fold & keep the bubble alive.

I think this is the most common misconception I have seen in the 300+ games I have played to date at the $104.32 level. I will try to explain why using the concept of average bubble factors as defined in the outstanding book, "Kill Eveyone"

For the following formats these are the average bubble factors that apply early:
DON(10-man) 2
(9-left) 1.8
9-man SNG 1.2
Cash game 1

Since a Fifty50 is in essence half a DON and half what I think of as an unplayed cash game I think that the BF should be 1.5 (at he start with 10 players still left) This would imply that correct play would be looser than in the ultra-tight DON but still considerably tighter than in a 9-man SNG

Play is unreal thus far. So many "regs" just call off monster stacks with little regard for being near the bubble. The -EV calls are quite amazing. Very tough to pwn any bubble in the 20s/50s thus far with these guys calling left & right. Got to give a lot more walks and a lot less EP/MP shoving than you'd think you could do.

Sorry, I got the DON 10-man and 9-man BFs inverted
. Correctly they should be 1.8(10-man) and 2.0(9-man)
The gist of my arguement is still correct IMO with the avBF at the start of a Fifty/50 being 1.4 instead of 1.5

So where is the edge coming from in these? Is it from surviving better than the fish or by playing a big stack better?

I'm having trouble knowing what to do in the early blind levels. Should I just be nitting it up a ton waiting for the blinds to kick in like in dons or should I be playing normal TAG hoping to get a decent stack?

Also wtf am I supposed to do about people calling everything? I tighten up but then I'm eventually forced into playing a bad hand in a bad spot cause I'll blind out otherwise. I guess it would help if I wasn't card dead.

Given that everyone calls, how should we be playing the chip lead near the bubble?

Our own calling ranges should look pretty tight right? I always talk myself into calling with medium strength hands when I'm getting good pot odds, but I'm thinkin I should just muck usually. So confusing. I know how to do pot odds but add icm in there and it gets super complicated.

yes and yes. my only experience is in the $104.32s and even there(so far until more old DON regs join) I see the following:

The real fish play much too loose early
As I said I think its correct to play quite tightly early(tighter than 9-man but looser than DON)
If you do this you will have a nice tight image into the middle and later game. (Obviously, the weaker the overall players the less this will be significant) Still, I think it will help you accumulate necessary chips later on.
Finally, if you do get a dominating stack on or near the bubble you still have to be more careful about trying to pwn it if you perceive that your opponents are "too clueless" to let you. I do think, however, that the prevailing perception that "they are calling way too wide" is somewhat overstated as it is correct to call wider than in a DON

Hope this helps somewhat GL

People make horrific calls. On the bubble with a micro stack about to be blinded out. They call off their stack with 10BB in 3rd or 4th place with K9o, JTs. It's really bad.

If its really that bad then you must tighten your pushing range a lot and just kinda slide into the money(kinda play it almost as if it were a DON), my guess is that you'll make smaller but very steady profits that way.

Also, if you post some specific HH that would be very helpful

They are calling too wide with medium to big stacks, obviously calling wider when shorter is expected in these.

as everyone seams to be spite calling the hell out of everyone it seams gettin a stack and shoving all plus ev spots where your not ****ed if u get spite called is the best way to wield ya big stack.
mid stacks are forced to avoid showdown somewhat and the shortest of stacks have to survive (only applicable on exact bubble before thet just gamble plus ev spots)
ive only played the 5 dollar 50/50s at thye moment and im showing 10roi over 1400games . that includes 700game break even period. the games are much much tougher now there littered with regs.

not sure the 3minute blinds help these games and keeping the don structure might of been slightly better but maybe they wanted to get away from the dons cause of teh scandal. maybe reduction to hyper rake would be fairer if they want to be fair.

Yeah way too many regs ATM at 20s & 50s

An interesting statement from someone I discussed this yesterday is that you should approach this game as playing a normal cash game, cause of the unlinear pay out structure. I think that is not a bad advice cause the chips you win are having much more value than in a don.

Anyway.......I thought I throw in here.

I think this is a half-truth. Mathematically it a 50/50 cross between a DON and a cash game. As an aside, even at the high stakes I've seen many people play it as if it were the rebuy period of a MTT w/ rebuys. This strategy is like throwing EV in the sewer.

What kind of variance have you guys seen so far? I'm on a WTF 35 BI downswing just as I thought I had these figured out. Shouldn't variance be lower than dons?

Edit: whoa just saw a regs graph that went on a 80 BI downswing. He's crushin too.

What do you guys think? To me, this was an easy shove. I lost, but obviously I had him crushed pf. Before I jammed I figured I was ahead of his range. He was working like 15 tables to start so he was like 12/8, but I could tell he was trying to bully with a big stack. I just don't know if it was worth it, since there were 2 shorter stacks than myself.


Poker Stars $5.00+$0.24 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t100/t200 Blinds + t25 - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

MP: t3250 M = 7.22
Hero (CO): t1505 M = 3.34
BTN: t3265 M = 7.26
SB: t1345 M = 2.99
BB: t1395 M = 3.10
UTG: t4240 M = 9.42

Pre Flop: (t450) Hero is CO with K A
UTG raises to t500, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1480 all in, 3 folds, UTG calls t980

Flop: (t3410) Q 4 J (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: (t3410) 5 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t3410) 3 (2 players - 1 is all in)

I've played maybe 200 games at the $5 level, gone a few BI+ so far. Some of the games are absolutely amazing, I had one game where 4 players went all in the first hand, some of them with 53o and similar.

1400 games in i dropped 25buy ins but been on some heaters similar. just grinding a little profit here and there at them. my itm rate 58.6
with ten roi. i presume different styles with generate differnt itm and roi rates.

i still feel 1400 games is no sample cause the games have really changed over the last week with more regs .

nice read. also, don't post results, even as a spoiler. we don't care about your results. you shouldn't either.

whether we should shove here depends on how much of his initial opening range he calls us with. depending on how everyone behind us plays, obv, if he is opening 20% and still calling all of it after we raise, our AKo should be hitting the muck. if he's opening 9%, but only calling our raise with 4.4%, AKo is just good enough.

remember, it's not whether we're ahead of his range, it's whether we're far enough ahead of his range to justify putting our life on the line.