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STT Strategy Discussion about the play of single table tournaments.

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Old 09-20-2017, 02:26 PM   #1
heyunloving
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Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???



I have been playing 6max DON tourneys latley and am consistently losing money. My PT4 says I am running more than $1,000 below EV in just a 700 game sample and i dont know how accurate that is. I would be happy to just chalk it up to " im just running bad" and keep putting volume in but at this point i just want to make sure that the ' My C Net Adjusted' stat is relevant for DONs before I have to drop stakes/tables played and take a serious look at what my ranges are and why i think they should be showing me a profit (i realize that even if i was running at my c net adjusted stat that id just be breaking even but this downswing has caused me to not always be playing my best).

Is it possible that because its DONs that im playing, that the EV numbers on my PokerTracker somehow mean less? I just want to make sure that I am just running badly (causing me to play badly) because at this point i am starting to wonder if maybe C Net Adjusted stat can be misleading in DONs.

I hope what I am trying to ask makes sense and any input on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Last edited by heyunloving; 09-20-2017 at 02:29 PM. Reason: pic wasnt showing up
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Old 09-24-2017, 07:56 PM   #2
heyunloving
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Re: Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

bump
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Old 09-25-2017, 05:09 AM   #3
Colinb7
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Re: Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

Don't play DON, but I don't see why it would be any different. It just calculates icm based on AI equity.
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:03 AM   #4
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Re: Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

Stack to pot ratio is important, you have the best hand prefop, but somehow you give your opponents the odds to shove or call a shove. Add in the ICM implications (not a part of poker tracker) and you wind up losing money.

I would not play DON's and I would use PT4 to study hands, not view ai equity.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:27 AM   #5
LektorAJ
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Re: Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

It's not just bad luck - ICM is only an approximation. Your strat seems to fall on one side of it. Interesting.

Most important though: Post hands, get better.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:59 AM   #6
Primrose6789
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Re: Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

I play DONs too, won´t open an extra thread but my c net adjusted looks also strange when I play DONs. SnG and MTT the c net is fine but as soon as I play DONs, I get a similar c-net adjusted even though I´m winning. Could it be that PT4 doesn´t recognize DONs and counts them as SnGs?
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Old 10-17-2017, 07:22 PM   #7
statmanhal
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Re: Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

I remember reading several years ago, that DON’s were infested with colluding players. Haven’t thought it through, but if that is still the case, maybe that is the reason for extremely bad c-net adjusted results.
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Old 10-18-2017, 03:36 AM   #8
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Re: Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

Quote:
Originally Posted by statmanhal View Post
I remember reading several years ago, that DON’s were infested with colluding players. Haven’t thought it through, but if that is still the case, maybe that is the reason for extremely bad c-net adjusted results.
On iPoker it´s fine, I only saw collusion once. But I think the reason could also be (especially in low limits) that recreational players and bad regs kick each other out and so you adjust and play tighter than you "normally should" against standard-regs. You fold hands which you normally would push but due to bad Villains the fold is actually +EV while PT4 counts it as -EV? Eventually, in DONs your goal is in fact to "fold ITM".

When I play turbo SnGs I don´t have this problem with c net adjusted but as soon as I play DONs, the EV-graph goes nuts even though I´m winning player at DONs.
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:33 AM   #9
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Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primrose6789 View Post
I play DONs too, won´t open an extra thread but my c net adjusted looks also strange when I play DONs. SnG and MTT the c net is fine but as soon as I play DONs, I get a similar c-net adjusted even though I´m winning. Could it be that PT4 doesn´t recognize DONs and counts them as SnGs?


Isn't a DON the only form of poker where you can get first place, yet lose chips?

Surviving with your last few BB would be a necessary skill for a DON player.....

EDIT: I forgot about satellites that award X number of seats, another bastion of ICM survival...
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:53 AM   #10
LektorAJ
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Re: Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

What is c-net adjusted? Is it adjusted for ICM?

If so don't expect it to be accurate, the ICM formula is only an approximation of what it is trying to measure.
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Old 10-19-2017, 12:38 PM   #11
Primrose6789
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Re: Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

Yes, in DONs you don´t wanna get first, it is enough to get fifth (10 max) or third (6-max), so it´s about survival not about winning the tournament. Like sats: xy places payed so you don´t go for winning but for this xyth place and so "fold ITM" because this is enough. You can´t get more.

But there is also ICM/FGS for DONs but I think PT4 doesn´t really calculate the DON-ICM while ICMizer does. I always wonder, why my c net adjusted goes down when I play DONs
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Old 10-19-2017, 02:50 PM   #12
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Re: Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

Then its because you are making relatively more moves that their formula says are wrong - the moves might be fine in ICMizer though.

If your ROI is ok over a decent sample I wouldn't worry about this. Also post hands.
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Old 10-21-2017, 11:59 PM   #13
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Re: Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

Yes OP, so long as PT4 knows correctly the structure of your DoN payouts at your site, C Net Adjusted is indeed correct. It knows you only need 3rd place to win, it knows it is wrong most of the time to gamble it up trying to get 1st instead of 2nd.

There is a difference in ICMEV vs an actual hand, compared with ICMEV vs a range, which is maybe what Lektor is hinting at above. It all evens out in the end though.

FGS (future game simulation) is something not taken in to account by Net Adjusted, but it shouldn't be too much a big deal. That is where it is for example most likely better on the bubble to fold your BB and SB leaving yourself totally crippled, if others will be forced All-In before it gets round to you again. ICM will partially account for this somewhat naturally anyway, FGS is just better.

Back when I played DoNs, Adjusted line was pretty damn smooth. Obviously games have got a lot harder these days. Those were 10-Max too. Good chance you're making some glaring errors however. Review hands it thinks are bad, post strat threads if you find confusion.
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Old Today, 07:40 AM   #14
Primrose6789
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Re: Big downswing is semi-short sample. Is 'C Net Adjusted' relevant in DONs???

Oooh, heeere we go: I get error messages like "unknown game format" quite often. Further, PT4 cannot recognize some tourneys (MTTs, DONs) and another reason could be that in low limit DONs you fold hands which would be a push because Villains are so bad, they kick each other out. According to ICM you would have a push but adjusting to Villains you fold and so it´s "-EV". Besides, ICMizer and PT4 often totally contradict in DONs. I analyzed a lot of DON-hands and while ICMizer says "push", PT4 says "fold".
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