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STT Strategy Discussion about the play of single table tournaments.

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Old 01-08-2018, 12:20 PM   #1
tucanroman
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AKo Vs push in this situation

I am starting to study hands and I'm lost.

I paste this hand to ICMIZER, I need to know this: I pressed "calculate" and it says is a +1.9x push. Then pressed "calculate nash equilibrium" and now it's a +0.01 push. Which is the "real" one?

And then.. strategy: I think this is a horrible overpush. I was 2nd and risking a lot with that overpush.

So, the correct way in this kind of situation is to wait and be the one who pushes the short staked people with a wide range, that's right?

You wouln't call here with QQ, JJ and TT?



    Pacific, $0.85 Buy-in (75/150 blinds, 15 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 5 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37926249

    SB: 6,732 (44.9 bb)
    BB: 1,425 (9.5 bb)
    MP: 1,830 (12.2 bb)
    CO: 1,163 (7.8 bb)
    Hero (BTN): 2,350 (15.7 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BTN with K A :: ::
    MP folds, CO raises to 1,148 and is all-in, Hero raises to 2,335 and is all-in, 2 folds

    Flop: (2,596) J 9 6 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    Turn: (2,596) 5 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    River: (2,596) 7 (2 players, 2 are all-in)

    Spoiler:



    Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
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    Old 01-08-2018, 04:25 PM   #2
    Fish'n'chips
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    This is a tough spot, because we don't have a made hand. It's a flip for half our stack if he has a pair. AK is a little over 2:1 to make a pair on the flop. Gaining chips is less equity gained than losing chips is equity lost.

    Daniel Negreanu folded AKs in a similar situation last night. I believe there were 8 remaining and 7 cash. Daniel was the second largest stack. One of the smaller stacks (Greenwood IIRC) shoved with QQ. He tanked for a bit and then folded it face up. Definitely an ICM fold.
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    Old 01-08-2018, 04:30 PM   #3
    alex20823
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    OP, don't listen to what the above poster said. Naniel Degreanu ( no typo ) was playing a 100K and had a decision for more than 30 BB if I remember correctly. Villain's shove is for 8 BB, you only have 15 and are with a premium. You're miles ahead of his pushin range with that stack. Easy re-shove, just got unlucky. Move on.
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    Old 01-08-2018, 05:16 PM   #4
    tucanroman
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    Alex, I know but what about ICM? I am ahead of his pushing range with 8bb if we just look at the hand but If I fold, there are 2 short stacked I can abuse, and is very probable that one of them gets suck out by chip leader or the other short very soon and I get to ITM. If I call and loose Im a the new shorter stack.

    I never used before ICMIZER and wasn't aware how short is the +EV call range in this spot
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    Old 01-08-2018, 05:26 PM   #5
    alex20823
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    Abuse ? Mate, the only one that can abuse at that table is the SB ( 45 BB ). Everyone else is in push/fold mode. How can you abuse them ? Raising rags and folding to their 7 BB shoves ? You're not deep enough.

    If you fold AK with 15 BB's when a short stacker pushes his last 8 into the pot, consider picking up another game. The only way I could see it being a good fold is if all the other players would've gone all in and you folding would basically ladder you up two, three or even four places.
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    Old 01-08-2018, 06:43 PM   #6
    tucanroman
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    You are making me doubt about it. What about ICMIZER is saying?

    Maybe abuse is not the best word to use. I meant this: I can easily push a lot to the shorter stacks and survive + increase my stack with half stack left if I lose any hand. I would only raise them to induce a push.
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    Old 01-09-2018, 03:10 AM   #7
    alex20823
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tucanroman View Post
    You are making me doubt about it. What about ICMIZER is saying?

    Maybe abuse is not the best word to use. I meant this: I can easily push a lot to the shorter stacks and survive + increase my stack with half stack left if I lose any hand. I would only raise them to induce a push.

    You have 15 BB. You maybe second in chips but are very close to the rest of the bunch. You don't have room to maneuver the other stacks by pushing on them. Plus, they won't/shouldn't fold that much since they're terribly short.

    You have AK. AK is a premium. You're basically doubting/beating yourself up for taking an opportunity where you pretty much knew that you were at worst flipping and in most cases were a 70% favorite. Again, 15 BB's! And you are five handed.

    If you want to overcomplicate things, fine, fold in the future but it's a mistake. If villain is shoving A 5 first to act, he's shoving any ace, K 10+, Q J, Q 10 (maybe ), any pocket pair. And he should shove those since he only has 7 BB's. If you fold A K, you're folding A Q A J etc. K x, Q x and you're only reshoving what ? JJ + ? That would make you easily exploitable and while it may get you ITM, by the time you reach it, you'll have 5 BB and almost 0 chances of laddering up, let alone with it.

    I'm going to say it once more. Long story short: 15 BB + A K premium + Wide push range of 7 BB stack = easy re-shove.
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    Old 01-09-2018, 03:56 PM   #8
    LektorAJ
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    To answer this properly we need basic information like how many cash, what are the payouts etc.

    I can't imagine AK is anything other than a reshove though.

    There are too many chips on the table to get a really good answer from software though. If you use FGS modes (only push fold) it will not know how to properly evaluate the situation where you win this flip.
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    Old 01-10-2018, 02:13 AM   #9
    tucanroman
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    You all must be right. Can someone paste the hand to ICMIZER and do the proper analisis? I only have the trial version of it
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    Old 01-10-2018, 08:45 AM   #10
    LektorAJ
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    ^ Does this pay out prizes to the top 3 in a ratio of 50%, 30%, 20%, or is it something else? Without knowing that we really can't do much.
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    Old 01-10-2018, 08:54 AM   #11
    alex20823
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    You don't need ICMIZER for this situation. The only way this is a profitable fold is if two or more short stacks would've gone all in and the big stack that covers all of you calls with you basically making money by folding it. But folding a premium just for the possibility of this unlikely scenario is a big mistake. It's a no brainer re-shove. If all the short stacks went all in, but the big stack folded, then this is still a call. You got unlucky, stop being butthurt, move on to the next one and if the same situation comes up, do the same.

    Good luck!
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    Old 01-11-2018, 01:44 AM   #12
    tucanroman
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    It does pays like that, is a $1 888 9person STT
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    Old 01-11-2018, 03:13 AM   #13
    LektorAJ
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    Depends how deep you look - but under ICM mode, HRC (a rival to ICMizer) gives AKo as a +1.83% push so it sounds like you are on the right lines.

    The original equilibrium it calculates should be the correct one - the other function sounds like something where you fix one player's range then calculate the nash equilibrium for everyone playing downstream of that.
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    Old 01-11-2018, 03:56 AM   #14
    alex20823
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
    Depends how deep you look - but under ICM mode, HRC (a rival to ICMizer) gives AKo as a +1.83% push so it sounds like you are on the right lines.

    The original equilibrium it calculates should be the correct one - the other function sounds like something where you fix one player's range then calculate the nash equilibrium for everyone playing downstream of that.
    Are you responding in regards to my post ?
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    Old 01-11-2018, 04:02 AM   #15
    LektorAJ
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    I was responding to OP's original question.

    When I say "correct" I mean he's using the software correctly, not that I necessarily think the software can properly evaluate the spot, due to factors like needed depth of FGS being impractically high, FGS not being available for raise, 3-bet spots further down the tree and so on. Most of that adds up to meaning he should play looser, so AKo is still definitely a re-shove.
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    Old 01-11-2018, 07:59 AM   #16
    alex20823
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
    I was responding to OP's original question.

    When I say "correct" I mean he's using the software correctly, not that I necessarily think the software can properly evaluate the spot, due to factors like needed depth of FGS being impractically high, FGS not being available for raise, 3-bet spots further down the tree and so on. Most of that adds up to meaning he should play looser, so AKo is still definitely a re-shove.
    He somehow thinks that he has room to abuse the shorter stacks( with him being one as well ) with 15 BB's. But regardless, I still think that even if we were talking in the ranges of 30 BB's, this would still be a re push. You definitely have to take into consideration the average level of players of these buy ins and I don't put it past players to open shove 30 BB's with hands like A 10, A J, A Q, sometimes even worse.
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    Old 01-11-2018, 12:21 PM   #17
    tucanroman
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by alex20823 View Post
    He somehow thinks that he has room to abuse the shorter stacks( with him being one as well ) with 15 BB's. But regardless, I still think that even if we were talking in the ranges of 30 BB's, this would still be a re push. You definitely have to take into consideration the average level of players of these buy ins and I don't put it past players to open shove 30 BB's with hands like A 10, A J, A Q, sometimes even worse.
    What I meant with "abuse" is just raise them x2,5 ATC then call their pushes depending of my actual hand + villain tendencies.

    This would not be working probably on higher stakes where I would get a push almost always, but in this stakes, with this players this works fine. I do it everyday.

    Anyway, I think I need to do some reading about this subjet, do you know any useful link? I mean ICM situacions (especially calling to push ranges)

    For example: I was yesterday at FT of a $1 180p regular Ps sit and go. 3 people left, I was second in chips with like 60, the big stacked had like 90 and the short had 9 at the point of the example.

    This 9bb kid was a regular, or at least a guy who played fine. So I had to believe he was pushing almost ATC at that point.

    he pushed me like 3 times, I had garbage like 83o. Third time I had A8s so I called.. he had KK.

    I believe this call was fine, but, it is? I need to be sure about these spots, that why I ask for some good reading about it.
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    Old 01-11-2018, 12:38 PM   #18
    alex20823
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tucanroman View Post
    What I meant with "abuse" is just raise them x2,5 ATC then call their pushes depending of my actual hand + villain tendencies.

    This would not be working probably on higher stakes where I would get a push almost always, but in this stakes, with this players this works fine. I do it everyday.

    Anyway, I think I need to do some reading about this subjet, do you know any useful link? I mean ICM situacions (especially calling to push ranges)

    For example: I was yesterday at FT of a $1 180p regular Ps sit and go. 3 people left, I was second in chips with like 60, the big stacked had like 90 and the short had 9 at the point of the example.

    This 9bb kid was a regular, or at least a guy who played fine. So I had to believe he was pushing almost ATC at that point.

    he pushed me like 3 times, I had garbage like 83o. Third time I had A8s so I called.. he had KK.

    I believe this call was fine, but, it is? I need to be sure about these spots, that why I ask for some good reading about it.
    The thing is, when you're that short ( under 10 BB's ), the min-raise trapping doesn't work anymore. The short stacks are too short to be bluff shoving on your raises, so if they're shoving over your raises, they're usually calling your all ins. What you won't like to happen when you're this short and min raising as you say with hands like A 10 off is for a short stack in the BB to call your raise and for the flop to come K 5 6 and he shoves on you for like 5 BB. You have like 12 BB remaining and can't really call it off, can't really fold. So, you put yourself in an awkward spot by not shoving preflop and give yourself the added fold equity.


    In regards to your regular pushing with KK. From what position did he push and from what position did you call? It also depends on the payouts and at what stage of tournament you are at, since you say that he's a reg, so most likely he's a good player, you don't want to see him with chips. But, considering the fact that it's a low stakes tournament where volume is the most important if you want to make serious money, then if it was blind vs blind, then it's a pretty easy call for 10 BB. I'd say that even if it's a button shove, you have to call. Other than that, it's a fold.
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    Old 01-12-2018, 01:07 PM   #19
    tucanroman
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    He was at SB, I was at BTN. I min raise, he shoves.

    You see how lost I am with this? My problem is that I read a lot about the subjet, and for example: I read that If you get shoven by 10%-15% of your stack by a regular is almost a call with any two.

    I think that is right but maybe isn't with ICM considerations.

    Then, I put a hand on ICMIZER and it says is only a call with KK,AA then I come here and I get informed it was an obvious call with AK.

    You said: "It also depends on the payouts and at what stage of tournament you are at" What "depends" means here? where can I find a reading about this that I can trust is right? You wouln't pay a reshove from that 9bb guy with A8 if he shoves 3 hands in a row? with 60bb in your stack? why not? I should better wait for a better hand to end him and no get the risk of givin him life again? Is better to just shove him everytime I have a decent hand?

    What I learn about this spot and what you said before is that min raise to a short is stupid.

    All the push/call pushes during ICM or not are realy confusing. Another stupid play example:

    I was yesterdat at FT of a 45 person $1 at PS. 8 people left, 7 places paid, I was at 7 place with like 11bb. At my right was this guy that I remember as a "good LAG" but not the exact numbers.

    At some point I'm in BB seat with 11bb and he shoeves me 9bb from SB. I had J9s. I know this guy, he is capable to do this with any two, so I called. I won, he had 58s

    What about this play? is it ICM-stupid? How much more tight you need to be? Last place on bubble is as important as getting to 1,2,3 places in that moment?

    Does the interpretation of the play changes if there are some shorts on table, like 2 or 3? I should be thighter because I can climb up more?. If me and the lag kid where the only shorts that play is ok?

    This is so so big, maybe infinite spots, I need some kind of information to use as a guide, or just as a point to take desicions from, but I find controvenrcial information on internet, some says A, some B, and some other "be more thight when ICM" and what is more thight?

    I believe at the end, is just about experience, ins't it?
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    Old Today, 10:31 AM   #20
    Kraz
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    Re: AKo Vs push in this situation

    Easy reshove IMO. Villain has WAY more combos that we dominate than pairs that we're flipping against, and just a few that we're dead against.

    We're still far from the money so folding AK is out of the queation.

    The only spot I would consider folding would be if we were right on the bubble with a big stack, a bigger one shoved and there was a major shorty. But even then I think reshoving should be OK.
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