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Old 09-16-2020, 06:10 AM   #1
jakwad31
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Join Date: Jul 2020
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9 man SNG turbo

Guys,

Where can I get most recent 9 man turbo SNG course or seek and advice from current 9 man SNG grinders.

All I found was "sitandgogrinders" dated 2014 however I would like to get a current course or a learning session.

Thank you in advance and good luck at the tables.

Art
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Old 09-16-2020, 02:49 PM   #2
jakwad31
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Re: 9 man SNG turbo

Ok, I will try to explain my problem here. I definitely know the fundamentals.

Over 1.7k games at 3.50 USD Turbo I am running at 2.8% ROI which is not good in my understanding. I put my hands in ICMizer and 95% of them are spot on the rest 3% are borderline and 2% are small mistakes.

I need a course or someone to help me with my leaks because i am tired of running at such low ROI and tired of putting hands into ICMizer to only see that I am doing almost everything correctly.

I foun sipping_Chriss Cardrunners video of 9 man 16 USD turbo back from 2012. Started watching it anbd he is on the BTN with 14bb with QJs and 6 people out of 9 still in game. He folds. I mean really ? I am shoving it all day everyday and twice on Sundays.

ICMizer says it is a shove. That is why I don`t really want to buy something that dated from"sitandgogrinders". I probably would if I won`t find any support here.

Hoping for your help and good luck at the tables.
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:24 PM   #3
Cptn.CalicoJack
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Re: 9 man SNG turbo

hey bro, first of all chill out a bit...dont get me wrong but u have to understand that 1.7k sample is pretty small for turbo 9man... it's really possible your ROI is bigger or smaller...
Tbh there are not many training options for 9man sngs these days...the most of videos are outdated and most of the articles too..
studying and analyzing your push/fold game with Icmizer should be your first priority...and also reviewing some of your sngs with PT4 or HM2 so you can find your leaks...but trust me the best you can do is study icmizer and review your own sngs and put more volume...
I have 9% roi on 1$ - 1.5$ - 3$ - 3.5$ 9man turbos over a 12K sample..and there have been periods of 1,5-2,5k where i am breakeven or losing...so just continue studying and grinding and you will get a better view on your ROI and game when you get at least 5K...
also if you would like to discuss startegy for sngs i am interested..just pm me
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Old 09-17-2020, 08:13 AM   #4
JoshDimes
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Re: 9 man SNG turbo

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakwad31 View Post
Ok, I will try to explain my problem here. I definitely know the fundamentals.

Over 1.7k games at 3.50 USD Turbo I am running at 2.8% ROI which is not good in my understanding. I put my hands in ICMizer and 95% of them are spot on the rest 3% are borderline and 2% are small mistakes.

I need a course or someone to help me with my leaks because i am tired of running at such low ROI and tired of putting hands into ICMizer to only see that I am doing almost everything correctly.

I foun sipping_Chriss Cardrunners video of 9 man 16 USD turbo back from 2012. Started watching it anbd he is on the BTN with 14bb with QJs and 6 people out of 9 still in game. He folds. I mean really ? I am shoving it all day everyday and twice on Sundays.

ICMizer says it is a shove. That is why I don`t really want to buy something that dated from"sitandgogrinders". I probably would if I won`t find any support here.

Hoping for your help and good luck at the tables.
A question about your use of ICMizer : How are you calibrating it? I can't say for sure, but, for instance (and this is only an example, not an ironclad recommendation, because I don't have enough information about your games), it might make sense to tighten up a bit more than the "perfect" recommendations that ICMizer gives and give up some "marginal value" in exchange for some "fat value" when you're in games with a bunch of crazy ICM punters and people who call too much.

In the same vein, you might want to try looking for weak-passive players that are just lost post-flop and utilize min-raises against them instead of shoves. The shove might be more mathematically correct in some cases, but if you're spotting people that are call-folding too much, it might make sense to try to get them into more post-flop play situations and exploit them there. Against solid regs who know what they're doing, it's a terrible idea, but the $1-$10 games have a lot of people in them who will hemorrhage chips to that.
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Old 09-17-2020, 10:00 AM   #5
Cptn.CalicoJack
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Re: 9 man SNG turbo

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshDimes View Post
A question about your use of ICMizer : How are you calibrating it? I can't say for sure, but, for instance (and this is only an example, not an ironclad recommendation, because I don't have enough information about your games), it might make sense to tighten up a bit more than the "perfect" recommendations that ICMizer gives and give up some "marginal value" in exchange for some "fat value" when you're in games with a bunch of crazy ICM punters and people who call too much.

In the same vein, you might want to try looking for weak-passive players that are just lost post-flop and utilize min-raises against them instead of shoves. The shove might be more mathematically correct in some cases, but if you're spotting people that are call-folding too much, it might make sense to try to get them into more post-flop play situations and exploit them there. Against solid regs who know what they're doing, it's a terrible idea, but the $1-$10 games have a lot of people in them who will hemorrhage chips to that.
Hey buddy , 1st of all there is an option at Icmizer and you can adjust your opponents ranges..For example..if the BB is a Maniac caller playing 70% vpip i can go and adjust that on icmizer instead of lets say having a 40% calling range on the BB..and it shows you the mathematically correct shoves...
Also taking notes on opponents and adjusting your game to them is helpful too...I mean if you have an edge over your opponents it's not of a big deal to let some slightly +ev spots , but in the long run i think playing according to Icmizer is the most profitable play..
About the call-folding players, what you say makes perfect sense...and its a good strategy to outplay the postflop...the problem is that at 9man turbos the most of the time you are pretty shortstacked and then playing postflop costs you a lot of value...For example lets say you are on the bubble in the Sb 12bbs deep and the BB is loose passive with 13bbs .. you got A10o and you raise to 2bbs..he calls and the flop is Q-5-8 rainbow...if you cbet and get called you are in a very bad situation..if you have pushed it would be like 10x better...
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Old 09-17-2020, 12:20 PM   #6
JoshDimes
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 22
Re: 9 man SNG turbo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cptn.CalicoJack View Post
Hey buddy , 1st of all there is an option at Icmizer and you can adjust your opponents ranges..For example..if the BB is a Maniac caller playing 70% vpip i can go and adjust that on icmizer instead of lets say having a 40% calling range on the BB..and it shows you the mathematically correct shoves...
I know that, and I guess you know that, but I figured there's a possibility he needs to think about it more, so I was just throwing it out there. I've seen plenty of people use ICMizer and have absolutely zero awareness of it. I hope he doesn't take it as a slight - for all I know it's not an issue whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cptn.CalicoJack View Post
Also taking notes on opponents and adjusting your game to them is helpful too...I mean if you have an edge over your opponents it's not of a big deal to let some slightly +ev spots , but in the long run i think playing according to Icmizer is the most profitable play.
We don't disagree. A lot of what makes "optimal" shoving ranges "work" is the assumption of a rational opponent though... ...and, well, I'm sure you've played in the micros (no shortage of "irrational" stuff). I don't recommend deviating too much, and your point is well taken, but I do think it makes sense to play a bit more "exploitatively" in the smaller stakes. Ultimately, he'll have to do the hard work of looking into his ranges, his opponents, and seeing where it makes sense to shift a little off of what ICMizer says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cptn.CalicoJack View Post
About the call-folding players, what you say makes perfect sense...and its a good strategy to outplay the postflop...the problem is that at 9man turbos the most of the time you are pretty shortstacked and then playing postflop costs you a lot of value...For example lets say you are on the bubble in the Sb 12bbs deep and the BB is loose passive with 13bbs .. you got A10o and you raise to 2bbs..he calls and the flop is Q-5-8 rainbow...if you cbet and get called you are in a very bad situation..if you have pushed it would be like 10x better...
You hinted at this earlier, pointing out the variance, which is absolutely a big deal with the turbos (it's more than possible that the OP is playing fine and just happens to be going through a big break-even stretch - I can't say for sure). It's true that a lot of the time your stack (especially in turbo formats) just doesn't give you the latitude to get too creative and you're just going to have to shove and eat the swings.

There's also the simple fact that playing a 10-15 BB stack is just flat out difficult a lot of the time, turbo or not. There's some different stuff he can try (you can definitely limp-stab pretty successfully with some players, for instance). To clarify, again, I'm not recommending major shifts from standard pushing strategy - I was just throwing out the idea that micro opponents are often making mistakes where you can sometimes get away from it and attack them more effectively with smallball.
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Old Yesterday, 08:34 AM   #7
Ronny Mahoni
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Re: 9 man SNG turbo

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakwad31 View Post
Over 1.7k games at 3.50 USD Turbo I am running at 2.8% ROI which is not good in my understanding.

I foun sipping_Chriss Cardrunners video of 9 man 16 USD turbo back from 2012. Started watching it anbd he is on the BTN with 14bb with QJs and 6 people out of 9 still in game. He folds. I mean really ? I am shoving it all day everyday and twice on Sundays.
Im not saying he was doing the right thing in this spot, but if you want to improve you need to do things differently than you did before.

If I see someone like Sippin do something like this, Ill check the spot myself and try to figure out what could trigger a good player to do what he did.
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Old Yesterday, 11:40 AM   #8
Hot*ShoT
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Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: To the moon, fly me soon
Posts: 219
Re: 9 man SNG turbo

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakwad31 View Post
I foun sipping_Chriss Cardrunners video of 9 man 16 USD turbo back from 2012. Started watching it anbd he is on the BTN with 14bb with QJs and 6 people out of 9 still in game. He folds. I mean really ? I am shoving it all day everyday and twice on Sundays.
You have to understand games were a lot different in 2012, to being with the 16s were actually 15+1 (can you believe that?). On top of that Stars had a pretty neat VIP programme, games were a lot less reg infested and traffic infinitie times more all around the clock, a lot more free equity to pick up and a lot more tiny edges to pass on etc...

To give you an example it was pretty common if certain X player was seated on your left and it was folded to you it was an insta ATC push regardless of the stack setup because this is how bad players were (folded way too much), and SNGs was really all about quantity > quality so even if you had made a lot of small mistakes the sheer volume made up for it unless you were really bleeding money

For all these reasons I wouldn't pay much attention to the hand ranges part and just watch these videos to understand the general mindset of multitabling SNG play + maybe if you are interested in history its a fun watch. Althought Sippin was one of the highest ROI regs on 16/9mans and was a very active poster in here so if you are intereted in his game use the search function or maybe he himself comes in and tells you why he did that
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