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STT Strategy Discussion about the play of single table tournaments.

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Old 01-11-2018, 05:47 PM   #1
mrrnnn
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6-max payout structure differences

Even at a quick glance we can see that the sites vary in payout structures and blind & ante structures quite significantly.


9-max is (always?) 5:3:2, however, with 6-max it varies.


(turbo)
Stars = 65%, 35%
Partypoker = 60%, 40%
Ipoker = 70%, 30%


I play on Ipoker, so I'm dealing with 70% to 1st and 30% to 2nd. I would like to ask for any useful advice in approaching this payout structure as opposed to others in order to maximize my profits, particularly when it comes to HU, which I think is my biggest leak.

For the most part it probably has to do with reducing variance and really picking your spots heads-up as it pays to be 1st.

Certain villains realize they are not good heads up and immediately employ a to-hell-with-it attitude since they are already in the money and don't really care if they come 1st or 2nd. So for example when villain snap shoves over my raise for the third time, I have a hard time folding a hand like a raggy offsuit king or similar, given that the play is correct in terms of stack depths.

Particularly when both opponents are 20bb+ deep. Would you still always call "correctly" if you could see your opponents hole cards or would you "wait for a better spot"?

How would you approach such opponents? I'm pretty sure I am losing money here and I'm pretty sure a somewhat unorthodox strategy such as employing a lot of limping on the button would win me more money (as it is the strategies that have proven most useful so far in the games I play are simple early-tight-late-aggressive strategies with lots of ICM pressure).

I know how to approach other on-the-bubble spots because I can just help myself with icmizer (which says I can call significantly wider in a 70% - 30% structure). However, I really think I could win more money heads up.


Also: Am I doing something wrong or are nash push/fold ranges the same HU no matter the structure? Can anyone explain this to a layman? What if the payout structure were 99% to 1st and 1% to 2nd? Doesn't that affect the situation?


And lastly: In general it's correct to assume your HU game is more important in 6-max than in 9-max, right?
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:43 AM   #2
mrrnnn
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Re: 6-max payout structure differences

After thinking about it 20bb+ really is a stretch. Probably more like 15bb+.


Anyway ... Any thoughts on how the payout structure in 6-max SNGs affects the play in general? How can I improve my game and plug possible leaks?
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:33 AM   #3
SeeTheMirage
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Re: 6-max payout structure differences

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrnnn View Post
I play on Ipoker, so I'm dealing with 70% to 1st and 30% to 2nd. I would like to ask for any useful advice in approaching this payout structure as opposed to others in order to maximize my profits, particularly when it comes to HU, which I think is my biggest leak.
HU is the only spot in the whole SNG that isn't affected by different payout structures.

Doesn't matter if it's 60/40, 70/30, or a large field MTT. Once it's HU, both players are already guaranteed 2nd place money, the only way to bump your payout is to win. So you play to win no matter if that bumps your payout by 1% or 1000% over 2nd place.

HU strategy is based on stack size and opponent tendencies, the payouts don't play into your decision at that point like they would 3+ handed.
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Old 01-13-2018, 09:19 AM   #4
LektorAJ
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Re: 6-max payout structure differences

+1

There is a great quote in a book which goes something like "even if 1st and 2nd both pay 1 million dollars and the only difference is a plastic trophy and bragging rights, the strategy doesn't change HU."
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:43 PM   #5
mrrnnn
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Re: 6-max payout structure differences

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeTheMirage View Post
HU is the only spot in the whole SNG that isn't affected by different payout structures.

Doesn't matter if it's 60/40, 70/30, or a large field MTT. Once it's HU, both players are already guaranteed 2nd place money, the only way to bump your payout is to win. So you play to win no matter if that bumps your payout by 1% or 1000% over 2nd place.

HU strategy is based on stack size and opponent tendencies, the payouts don't play into your decision at that point like they would 3+ handed.
Aren't there several ways to win, some better than others? I realize that HU isn't affected by different payout structures and thank both of you for your answers. However, in thinking about HU play in general, does it not make sense to play a certain way against some opponents? I really think I'm missing out on a lot of value in such spots, but I could be wrong.


Example:

Let me introduce the villain who refuses to play HU. By this I mean he realizes he is at a disadvantage and does not want to play postflop with the exception of the strongest hands with which he is trapping. He thus reduces his play to push/fold regardless of the fact that both stack depths allow for other plays.

Let's take a situation where both players have 22bb and villain is open shoving 27% (not unreasonable). We can profitably call with 13% of all hands, including A8o (+0.08) - the hand itself really doesn't matter, it could be as high as +0.2 for all I care.

Let's also presume that villain is unaware of how wide you simply have to defend your blind in heads up if you want to not automatically lose and is defending way too tight.

By employing a tactic of folding to any villain shove and opening wide enough to abuse him, aren't we going to win at a much higher frequency than taking marginal spots?

I realize my current questions aren't related to the payout structure, it's just that the different payout structure with 70% to 1st got me thinking that there is a lot of money to be made (or rather, not to be lost recklessly) here.


And I know you can't rely on intuition when it comes to poker as it can often be misleading, but why can't I shake off the feeling that there is more incentive in a 70%/30% structure than in a 60%/40% structure to play your absolute best? Is this just misleading and a subjective thing and the "amount" of incentive is the same in both spots, it's just that I've finally noticed my sub-optimal plays in general?
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Old 01-14-2018, 12:00 PM   #6
Twice.
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Re: 6-max payout structure differences

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrnnn View Post

I realize my current questions aren't related to the payout structure, it's just that the different payout structure with 70% to 1st got me thinking that there is a lot of money to be made (or rather, not to be lost recklessly) here.


And I know you can't rely on intuition when it comes to poker as it can often be misleading, but why can't I shake off the feeling that there is more incentive in a 70%/30% structure than in a 60%/40% structure to play your absolute best? Is this just misleading and a subjective thing and the "amount" of incentive is the same in both spots, it's just that I've finally noticed my sub-optimal plays in general?
Yes, this is, in a way, correct I think. Although you should of course always play as good as possible to maximize your EV, being good in HU is more important in the 70/30 structure. It is obviously hard to quantify exactly, but if you play the 70/30 variant you 'should' focus your study time more on HU compared to if you play the 60/40 structure.
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