Hey.

So I have been dabbling with $5 and $10 18-24 man games they have on Stars. Has anyone here actually beat these for a decent sample?

First of all, the $5 games have 10% rake. The rake does get lower as you increase the buyin. With only 10bb starting stacks + antes, with blinds progressing like this every 2 minutes: 25/50 - 35/70 - 50/100 - 200/400 -300/600! (With huge antes) And big stacks calling you with almost ATC in order to get a KO, the variance is insane. Somehow I still want to be able to grind these out, they are fun and full of fish. I don't mind formats with small edges and crazy variance.
Anyways, I have played around 6k of these and have a combined ROI of about -3%. I have been a sng pro for many years, and have always prided myself with having one of the highest ROI's.

Would Stars ever put out a game that wasn't beatable? What can I do to get better at these? I feel ICMIZER alone isn't enough as I think there is more to discuss about winning strategy. Things like:

1.) negative EV overcalling allin early in order to get a stack and multiple KO's.

2.) Shoving something super speculative FIRST hand; It is very important to have everyone covered. You usually will get all-in with multiple players.You either bust or KO multiple players, and 3x or more your stack, which enables you to actually fold through some orbits. If not you steal the blinds which is important as well as even having 1 more chip than your opponents is vital. Seems -EV to wait around for a normally +ICM ev shove. It's just not possible with these insane blind structures. You'll end up shoving a3o for 1.7bbs utg and getting allin with 4 players whom you have none covered. lol.


If anyone would like to discuss strategy or has any tips for me, that would be greatly appreciated. Bottom line is I do find these fun and even if a 2% max ROI is attainable, I am ok with that. I know they offer quite high buy-ins for these, surely there has to be some regs playing those that could offer some knowledge?

Thanks.

I'm a casual player and last year I manage to do this in 1 month

Profit : 183$ / 0.96$
Games played: 192
Itm: 72 / 37.5%
Biggest cash: 181$

Playing only the 18max 25$bi version, I know there's almost insignificant against a 6k sample but you can extrapolate tho.

How can you make profits if your roi is negative? Can you explain that to a newbie like me? Thanks.

I've started playing the 6max hyper KO. Very enjoyable game with a lot of recreational players who are often there just to gamble. I've played about 3000 with an average stake of $7 and a 2% ROI. Suffered a $300 downswing in the last 200 games so I will improve on that ROI. I have the same questions you have. I agree that ICMIZER may not be enough. For example, should hero shove any two, first hand of the game, if it's folded around to him in the SB, for the reasons you described above? ICMIZER says no but I'm not sure if I agree. I'm going to get a lesson from someone who is beating these games. There are definitely regs playing this format with success. GL

Niall.

Thanks for the reply. I too would be interested in talking//getting coached from someone who is beating these games.

You should check out my same post, but in the small stakes MTT section. Someone gave a valuable link regarding KO's and how to adjust your calling ranges compared to regular non-KOs. It is very valuable information, but somehow I am still not sure if it is correct. It basically says(after applying the equation to the $10 18 man hyper turbo KOs) to add 500 chips to the pot when calling all-ins.

This means if button is shoving first hand and you are in BB you can call almost ATC, (80+% I'd estimate) as you now only need around 30% equity.

I would like to hear yours and others opinions on this.

Thanks

If they didn't change the structure recently (afair it was sth ridiculous like 6bb eff -10bb and ante- from start with high rake):
(Borderline) unbeatable, raketrap.

You can check sharkscope to find out if some players beat these over a reasonable sample. My best guess is no.

A lot of ppl were asking here for 18m hypers for years in that suggestion thread, when they were finally introduced no one grinded them. Two options: (1) all dumb (2) not beatable for a reasonable $/h. Some of the ppl asking regularly made five fig months and six fig years. I leave it to you to find out what's the more likely scenario

The structure has remained the same. Hence there's little postflop edge, but a lot of edge seems to come from final table play, where recs make a ton of mistakes; besides, some recs fail to call with nearly ATC when having a big stack In the era of chests, sitting in games with a reasonably high rec ratio, exploiting newbs to the maximum and riding the waves of variance has become more important than knowing advanced GTO.

There must be some people who're crushing those games but of course keeping it secret because their success is very dependent on the number of regs in the games. So you have to risk your own buck to learn what your own ROI would be (maybe negative, maybe positive, depending on how efficiently and passionately you learn the strategy on your own).

I know a Russian who claims to be beating 18-man KOs ($10-25) over a large sample but has severe mental game issues (hates the RNG) and is now trying to learn cash games instead, making silly postflop mistakes at NL10-25

It's not a sin not to know postflop play; it's a sin to sit in games that require that knowledge.

I can't say if the 18 max games are profitable but the 6max definitely are. Check out the stats of a Russian guy called wildchiId. He has played 110K 6Max hypers Av stake $16 Av profit 70c. Now he is playing 6Max hyper KO. 9K played Av stake $9.50 Av profit 81c. He's crushing with an 8% roi

Fast-Livin . Cheers. I will check out that link. I have been looking for reading material for this game but there isn't much around at all.

What's your SN Niall?

Concerning 6m hyper ko: Different structure, very grindable, their icm implications also make those a pretty interesting variant. With bounty being 50% of BI, some EV change drastically in relation to std 6m (or games with smaller share of bounties like 9m tko)

I.Niall.I