That's fair. Your whole post makes sense. I certainly don't think women are incapable of manipulation-- if I'm actively dating I fully expect to get manipulated on a regular basis. You just stop talking to the ones that are manipulative and move on.

A more speculative thing I just thought of: even in today's society where women are closer to equal, financial security tends to be a way more important and desired trait in men than in women (this isn't a controversial statement, is it?). So a man who can handle the check on a first date may be able to score some subconscious points with his date, whereas a woman doing the same likely can't. This seems like it could be a big underlying reason why the equilibrium has stayed as man paying.

95% of the women that I know think that the man should pay for the first date. Many of them are very liberal, feminist, etc. and they still think the man should always pay for the first date.

A good percentage of the woman that I know think that them man should pay for the first 3 dates

First date in a restaurant is a very bad idea anyway, so who cares who pays for the drinks. I personally couldn't care less about the gender politics and who "should" pay, it's just not going to be a lot of money anyway. I definitely always pay by default.

Fun fact: I've only ever taken one person for dinner on first date. Between finishing eating and asking for the bill I went to take a quick leak, and by the time I got back literally 30 seconds later she had paid the whole ~$120 bill. For a fleeting moment I thought she was really in a rush to gtfo, but luckily that wasn't the case - I demanded to at least be allowed to buy her $60 worth of drinks and we ended up doing just that. Dated the girl for about a year.

Wtf kind of advice is this. Guy's trying to get a girlfriend here.

This is the point I was hoping someone would make. Early in my life I’d stress over getting familair enough with a crush to get a yes to a dinner and since then I’ve had so many friends make the mistake of building up some idea of impressing a girl by taking her to a restaurant and it doesn’t generally work. You’ll end up somewhere where you don’t know the menu and staff and more likely look awkward and not have a great time.

If she is into you then she wouldnt care if it’s Taco Bell or tapas at a trendy place. A first date should be a continuation of a good chemistry already forming and you should only go to a restaurant if you are both genuinely hungry and then go somewhere you would go anyway. She wants to see your actual world and routine, not something that isn’t you.

Why ia restaurant on a first date a bad idea?

Could become too expensive, and then you run the risk of being thot-committed. Serious answer: restaurant is too serious and formal and quiet for a first date. Bar has more energy, noise, ppl watching and drinks are fun.

My play if the girl shows any interest in picking up the tab on a first date is to take it, and if they push back at all, say I’ll get this one, you get next one? Builds momentum for next date, where I’ll obv pick up the tab as well unless she playfully insists.

If you date online, you can do a hell of a lot of first dates. It's expensive and, if it's not going well, it's much easier to wrap drinks.

Its such a commitment. What if you and the girl don't have any chemistry? Then she has to sit through another 45 awkward minutes with a stranger.

I've never proposed dinner on a first date, but I'd imagine for an attractive girl, their rate of flaking on them must be absurdly high.

I nearly always pay the whole thing, then sometimes regret it when I realise afterwards I probably don't care about seeing her again.

Last first date we had like $120 on drinks (cocktails) and I paid the whole thing, she didn't even offer, and that kind of made me not want to see her again.

When it's a tab, I nearly always pay the whole thing, then sometimes regret it when I realise afterwards I probably don't care about seeing her again.

Last first date we had like $120 on drinks (cocktails) and I paid the whole thing, she didn't even offer, I was a bit on the fence anyway, and that kind of made me not want to see her again.

Paying for each round separately is clearly the way to go as it seems to be more of a norm for her to offer to get alternate rounds.

For me.... first date is always a coffee.... I want to be able to flee fast and let the guy the opportunity to escape fast if he wants. I mean why steal each others time if it is obvious that it just won't be anything. And it is a complete "no go" if the guy doesn't pay it. I generally take the cheapest coffee and if the guy doesn't pay this 3 Euros, it screams for me "You are on your own in everything". The same is, if I won't let the guy pay for me. That means that I am completely 100 % sure that I don't want to see him again. And I mean ... if drinking coffee is a real fun, there is no harm in extending into something bigger .

Relevant

http://www.basicinstructions.net/bas...be-a-gentleman

I agree with Dom, whoever does the asking out should pick up the tab for the first date, but I would always offer to pay half either way. If a guy insisted I wouldn't keep offering and just accept that. I think after that it should be a split tab.

I do think if someone has more money than the other person (male or female) and wants to do things that are outside that other persons reach financially then he/she should offer to pick up the tab. I always considered myself pretty independent but when I was seeing someone a few years ago and I had begun having financial problems he liked to go away a lot and travel and there was no way I could keep up financially so he would pay.

I remember once I went out with a guy on a first date and I thought it was going horribly, he just seemed like a really huge egomaniac and his positions on things were pretty much the opposite of mine. I couldn't wait for it to end but didn't want to be rude, so we had dinner and when the tab came I offered to pay half (he had asked me out). He insisted he pay, but I actually wanted to pay half because I had no intention of seeing him again and felt awkward.

At the end of the night he asked when he could see me again and I told him in as nice a way as possible that I was really busy and couldn't make any plans, in other words, never. His response was "oh, okay then can I have that $20 towards dinner?".

Girl I'm meeting for a coffee date in the late afternoon texted me earlier today that she just paid rent and is out of cash to go eat somewhere and wanted to let me know in advance so that I don't feel like I have to pay for everything.

Takes all the guesswork out of it at least!

I'm not sure why this isn't common sense. It seems like an awful lot of people want to turn this into some sort of women's rights thing or generational gap thing when really this has been standard for a really long time.

+1

"Oh, you insist on paying / want to split? Thank you. How about you / I get the next one?"

Arguably the easiest part about getting a second date.

grunching

the #metoo movement advises not to.

A bit tongue in cheek (and a bit infuriating), but here's how some people think about this:

If a guy doesn’t pay on the first date, you should ghost him

(brought to you by the same people who published the Aziz story)

I haven't dated in forever but agree with Dom & Amber. I also think Lapka has a point, anyone getting caught up in not wanting to pay for a couple of coffees is someone I definitely wouldn't want to see again.

If you know the girl before hand by either hanging out in a group setting/met at club or bar, going to a restaurant is not a bad first date as long as you know that you already have chemistry. Online first dates are different and agree that drinks/coffee is superior

I'll always offer to pay but if she demands to split then Im not going to complain. I dont judge them either way regardless of what they do.

Who pays rent on the 15th?

Why wouldn't someone pay it on the 15th? Is this another bizarre US tradition?

It's just such an awkward unnatural setting. You want as casual as possible --> casual drinks such as alcohol/coffee over white tableclothes and waiters imo.

Standard is due on the 1st with a 2-5 day grace period. Most rental places start giving you hell after the 5th. Unless she's 2 weeks late, in a serious financial burden or that's code for, "if you wanna see me, you should be paying."

But I'm sure I'm probably wrong again. It won't be the last time. I really like the guy's post earlier in the thread about financial stability not being a deal-breaker for men. I know I would have saved myself a lot of money and time in the past if I would have held my standards higher.

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Hmmm. I guess I dont find eating to be unnatural. Or awkward.