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Under the technical rules of grammar that I was taught, yes. You need the subordinating conjunction, or you have two independent clauses. That is no longer standard, though. Perhaps it remains for academic writing, but not for speech, fiction, etc.

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12-16-2018 , 11:52 PM

#5852

NewOldGuy

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,935

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garick

Under the technical rules of grammar that I was taught, yes. You need the subordinating conjunction, or you have two independent clauses.

He does. So it's optional.

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12-16-2018 , 11:55 PM

#5853

Dominic

Tripod

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 74,268

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassette

I'm sorry to report that you nerds are woefully unaware of the atrocious state of Freshman writing. Those Dominic opening paragraphs are entirely unremarkable.

exactly

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12-17-2018 , 12:42 PM

#5854

Garick

Oberbiergenießer

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 26,516

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewOldGuy

He does. So it's optional.

Except that without the subordinating conjunction there is (formally) nothing linking those clauses. They are separate statements. Of course, I think that the linkage is obvious from context, but without the "that," I'm technically saying two separate things. "I think." "The linkage is obvious from context."

I don't know if this is one of the technical rules of grammar that is falling out of usage in formal writing. It certainly is in spoken English.

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12-17-2018 , 01:36 PM

#5855

John Cole

Lounge Nighthawk

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 18,190

I can live without the "that," but I wouldn't object to it being labeled an error.

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12-18-2018 , 03:27 AM

#5856

daveT

S.A.G.E. Master

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 23,955

Quote:

Originally Posted by lastcardcharlie

I am never quite when it's correct to put "that" in, in such situations (whatever the grammatical term for them is).

Years ago, I challenged myself to remove "that" as often as I could. I'm not sure how that worked out....

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12-18-2018 , 04:33 AM

#5857

JayTeeMe

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 29,409

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassette

I'm sorry to report that you nerds are woefully unaware of the atrocious state of Freshman writing. Those Dominic opening paragraphs are entirely unremarkable.

Man, what a tilting job.

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12-18-2018 , 05:43 AM

#5858

ChrisV

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 40,336

For real. I couldn't do it.

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12-18-2018 , 10:03 AM

#5859

W0X0F

sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,830

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveT

Years ago, I challenged myself to remove "that" as often as I could. I'm not sure how that worked out....

fyp

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12-19-2018 , 04:04 AM

#5860

W0X0F

sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,830

The “I/me”, “he/him” confusion is rampant. Why does no one know the difference between nominative and accusative case?

I’m watching Designated Survivor, season 1, episode 6. President Kirkman (Kiefer Sutherland) says “What are the chances of having he and his wife over to the White House for dinner.” Am I the only person who finds this like an aural speedbump?

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12-19-2018 , 07:55 AM

#5861

Garick

Oberbiergenießer

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 26,516

It's so strange. Almost no one gets those things wrong when it's just the pronoun. No writer would ever have the President say "What are the chances of having he over for dinner?" But add another person into the sentence and it's suddenly the most confusing thing ever.

I teach my students "just use whatever pronoun you would use if the other person weren't in the sentence," and they always look at me like it's a trick. "It can't be that simple," they seem to be thinking. "At any moment he's going to tell us about the exceptions."

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12-19-2018 , 12:09 PM

#5862

John Cole

Lounge Nighthawk

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 18,190

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Originally Posted by W0X0F

Perhaps it's simpler to use subjective, objective, and possessive for the English cases.

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12-19-2018 , 02:14 PM

#5863

Dominic

Tripod

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 74,268

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garick

this what I tell them, too

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12-19-2018 , 02:27 PM

#5864

John Cole

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Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 18,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominic

this what I tell them, too

And still they get it wrong.

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12-19-2018 , 02:50 PM

#5865

Garick

Oberbiergenießer

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 26,516

Do they look at you like you're trying to trick them into making rookie mistakes, too?

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12-19-2018 , 03:10 PM

#5866

John Cole

Lounge Nighthawk

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 18,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garick

Do they look at you like you're trying to trick them into making rookie mistakes, too?

Not usually, but it's been over seven years since I've taught freshmen comp. My colleagues tell me these students are different, but that's always been the case.

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12-19-2018 , 06:41 PM

#5867

W0X0F

sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,830

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Cole

Perhaps it's simpler to use subjective, objective, and possessive for the English cases.

Not sure I'm following you. If you mean I should use those terms rather than nominative and accusative, it really doesn't matter. It's not the terms being used that's causing the problem.

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12-19-2018 , 06:46 PM

#5868

John Cole

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Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 18,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by W0X0F

Not sure I'm following you. If you mean I should use those terms rather than nominative and accusative, it really doesn't matter. It's not the terms being used that's causing the problem.

No, but few will recognize the accusative since it's not really used in English--or the nominative for that matter.

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12-19-2018 , 06:53 PM

#5869

W0X0F

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Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,830

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Cole

No, but few will recognize the accusative since it's not really used in English--or the nominative for that matter.

Those few can make use of Google to fill in the gaps in their knowledge base. I could dumb it down but, again, that's missing the point here.

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12-19-2018 , 07:07 PM

#5870

John Cole

Lounge Nighthawk

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 18,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by W0X0F

Those few can make use of Google to fill in the gaps in their knowledge base. I could dumb it down but, again, that's missing the point here.

Hell, then why not throw in the ablative and the genitive as well? American students learn, or should learn, English case names. Then you can teach them about how to use pronouns correctly.

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12-19-2018 , 07:20 PM

#5871

W0X0F

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Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,830

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Cole

Hell, then why not throw in the ablative and the genitive as well? American students learn, or should learn, English case names. Then you can teach them about how to use pronouns correctly.

Wow, John, you continue to misinterpret my post. I used those terms here. I did not approach someone and say "You're using the nominative case when the accusative case is appropriate." The terms I use here to complain about the problem have nothing to do with the misuse I observe. If I were to try to educate someone about their misuse then, yes, I would use the terms "subject" and "object." Are you happy now?

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12-19-2018 , 07:39 PM

#5872

John Cole

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Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 18,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by W0X0F

Delighted. I wasn't being a prick. It's hard enough teaching these sorts of things to students. Damn, they have trouble figuring out the one remaining case marker in English.

The original comment referenced hearing someone say "he" instead of "him." I don't give this kind of spoken hypercorrection a second thought. Students ought to get it right in written form, but despite the easy check, they still struggle.

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12-19-2018 , 07:49 PM

#5873

W0X0F

sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,830

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Cole

The original comment referenced hearing someone say "he" instead of "him." I don't give this kind of spoken hypercorrection a second thought. Students ought to get it right in written form, but despite the easy check, they still struggle.

I wish it didn't hit my ear the way it does. I don't pretend to be a grammar guru, but this and the widespread mistakes with the past perfect tense, have the same effect on me that I imagine a sour note would have on a musician or singer. It sets my teeth on edge. Obviously my problem, as it doesn't seem to bother almost anyone else.

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12-19-2018 , 07:50 PM

#5874

Louis Cyphre

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 11,025

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Cole

Hell, then why not throw in the ablative and the genitive as well? American students learn, or should learn, English case names. Then you can teach them about how to use pronouns correctly.

There is no ablative in English, is there?

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12-19-2018 , 08:01 PM

#5875

John Cole

Lounge Nighthawk

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 18,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by W0X0F

Oh, no, it bothers me. But I have learned not to say anything. About fifteen years ago I noticed my students writing sentences like "I had wanted to tell him," confusing simple past and past perfect. I assumed the mistake came from spoken English, but I have never been sure.

This is amusing:

https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/ling...-say-had-went/

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