I'm jealous of the people who seem to be able to drink a lot for a couple days, then just quit. I do think some people can do this their whole life without progressing too far. One thing I never liked about some thoughts was that alcohol isn't good for anyone. I see plenty of people that I think its been a net positive for in their life.

The progression thing is insanely true for a lot of the rest of us. I've drank a lot since 20 but until 5 or 6 years ago I could stop whenever I wanted or needed. It has slowly progressed to where if I drink, it becomes all that matters until im too sick to drink anymore.

Don't know, probably. It's tempting to say it was a net positive for me in my younger years, the total amounts were low, and I learned the hard way what was "optimal". It's a way of putting in some repeated change in your life, you are sober, then drunk in various stages, rinse and repeat. Problem is if and when the net negatives start to be bigger. Then you are in for a project, knowing that long term you need to invest the energy in tapering and quitting, short term you can always grab that bottle, spoiling long term a bit yet again.

Yeah. A guy I know is an alcoholic and had, I dunno, some number of months sober. One Monday he decided he wanted to have a drink with his son at lunch. Woke up nearly 2 days later, with a total blackout of what had happened in the interim. And like... at my worst, I was addicted to alcohol and it was slowly ruining me. But I don't think I have it in me to go on benders like that. If I just let myself go on alcohol and don't rein myself in, I gradually just drink more and more until I'm drinking to excess every night. Maaaaaybe if I kept going I would get to the point of multi day benders, but I doubt it. This guy I know is like a classic Type 2 alcoholic as well, would frequently get in fights while drunk, that kind of thing. It does seem to me like there's a certain archetype of drinker, "true alcoholic" I guess, call it what you want, who ends up with this totally compulsive behavior where they have one drink and it's off to the races. And then other problem drinkers who aren't like that. The latter do convert into the former, but I don't think the conversion is anything like 100%.

IMO the very dangerous part about calling anybody a "true alcoholic" is that anybody who doesn't drink that way is tempted to think "Well, I don't think I'm really an alcoholic, it's not like I did the **** Dave did." But in my experience alcoholism is extremely insidious and can kill people or otherwise ruin lives in a variety of fun ways. Like, some people did and still do think a real alcoholic must be a wino riding the rails or something, but obviously we've come to believe you don't have to end up on the streets to be an alcoholic. This is one of the benefits I've derived from AA - being around people who drank like I drank and have had amazing experiences in recovery.

Just an update in here, I was India in for 2 months, didn't drink a drop of alcohol and it really wasn't that difficult for me. But of course I was outside of my normal social circle back in the States so that makes it much easier I think. It was pretty boring though, I just played poker most nights to keep busy. I read this Naked Mind, and while I enjoyed reading it, I didn't really feel the sense of freedom and satisfaction that she said she experienced after quitting.

Then I went to Sri Lanka after that and told myself I was going to just drink here and there but then drank much more often than I was expecting myself to. Right now I still don't know what I want to to do. I don't really do anything stupid when drinking, I just really like getting a nice buzz going - but with my tolerance - it takes quite a bit. Almost nobody would know if I was a half bottle deep or whatever. Eh, I probably should quit, but it just doesn't harm my life enough for me to really motivate myself to stop completely. I doubt i'll ever have that 'rock bottom' moment. It's more of a slow degradation. Plus when traveling it sucks not drinking when you're kind of shy and reserved and trying to meet new people. So I guess I'm gonna keep drinking like twice a week or so for now.

For myself, I completely ignored the term "alcoholic" because I didn't find it useful in the process of quitting. I don't talk about drinking/quitting much at all except on internet forums, but when I do I say I was a drunk. I liked being drunk and was drunk a lot of the time. Now I'm not a drunk anymore, I don't drink.

I also don't like the term "recovery" and never use it or think that way. It's all about sobriety for me, I'm sober. And as a responsible human being, I accept the ongoing obligation to take care of myself, handle other basic human stuff, and to continue improving.

In my experience and observation it's possible to be a responsible human being, totally cognizant of how a person "should" be, and still not be able to stop drinking or using drugs. If guilt, fear, shame, or awareness that the way I was living was completely ****ed up were enough for me to get sober, it would have happened long ago and would have never come to AA.

There are absolutely tons of problem drinkers who are able to quit for a wide variety of reasons: health, social, legal, etc. And, obviously, that's great. Many people who have not been able to quit in spite of all those reasons have found recovery in AA.

I apologize if this is inappropriate and if it is feel free to delete.

My wife has a once close friend who when she got out of the house on her own and got a job she started drinking socially because she was out from under the family thumb. She then started drinking to get out of her shyness and date.

From there she kept drinking until she got busted being drunk at work, got ordered by the union to go to counciling and AA, didn't go, got hired somewhere else, got fired for drinking on the job again and started drinking straight alcohol nearly all the time. Everyone knew but no one never mentioned to it to her to her face until just recently.

Now we're at the hospital because she's hospitalized for liver and kidney failure from complications from cirrhosis and probably has 24 hours left to live. She's 36.

It's so crazy because it just kind of sneaks up. With smoking there's commercials with body bags and warnings about cancer etc, with drinking there's drunk driving but there isn't that big push about cirrhosis so you don't think it's such a life threatening thing until it's too late. With her we were a bit removed from her situation, she lived in another state, but in the back of our minds we kind of imagined the worst would be just some talking behind her back and we'd talk about those few bad years, not her dying.

****. Sorry that happened. I hope things work out, if thats even possible.

Posting here for the first time. Have just read the last couple of pages, and its been good. Especially the idea that problem drinking doesnt look the same for everyone.

Im just going to bullet this ****, because i cant put it all together super coherently yet.

- dont drink alone, but drink heavy maybe one or two nights a week.
- went through a stage maybe 2 years ago of a lot of recreational drugs every weekend. Cut way back last year (thanks Duterte) and havent done them for a few months.
- make bad choices when drunk/high.
- have put relationships at risk due to nights out/poor choices.
- currently with a girl who i love and will probably marry.
- shes pointed out that i can be angry/dismissive/rude when drunk in a way that im never otherwise.
- drinking heavily is a big part of playing rugby.
- hang out with lots of people who arent as smart/educated as me. This is much more fun when drunk. Much less fun sober.
- recently decided to try Dry January. It went fairly well (one beer at a stag do, 10 drinks at one business meeting)
- rolled it over to dry feb. Also going fairly well. 3 drinks only after a rugby game yesterday, but didnt drink all evening after, which is very unusual.
- considering extending indefinitely, or at least cutting way down.
- like myself more when im drinking less/not drinking. Getting more **** done too.

I foresee problems handing the "yes i drink sometimes, but no im not drinking tonight conversations"

Congrats.

Sup it Wheelzie

This is a serious response, and from those of you familiar with me I understand the skepticism. I too am considering the thought of quitting alcohol or as I prefer to call it not drinking. I plan on deterring the cravings through profound psychedelic mental hypnosis, or basically just locking the habit up into a closet and forgetting about it. I doubt it will work, benzos and kratom slowed me down a bit but only added more fuel to a fire that is fueled with fuel. So here I stand, a shaky ground unable to decipher clarity from fog. I think i can go 12 days but never 12 steps. The last thing I need in my life, is some con artist trying to sell me sobriety in exchange for religion.....**** that nonsense, I do it my own way. The way of the grey, I subsidize and divert the brain into having something else going on....I dunno, like I said I doubt it will work...but I am willing to try. I wonder if I can resist the temptation of another .40oz 5 minutes from now when I stumble over to the gas station across the street...I have only 2 cigarettes left and a berzerk headspace to reckon with....

Ughhh cheers or something

I know this isn't a black and white answer but reading this thread makes it feel like if you drink alcohol at all, you are on the path to some sort of problem. I'm curious for any comments/advice:

I drink Fri-Sun and almost never Mon-Thurs (thanksgiving etc probably rule gets broken). I drink a little too much sometimes but it never causes any real problems. I know alcohol is unhealthy and I try not consume too much but my wife and I enjoy drinking red wine and we do so. Our tolerances have gone up and instead of sharing a bottle we might share 2 bottles on a Saturday evening now.

We have talked about quitting but we both really don't want to (it certainly seems like a positive for us but I know that's probably what everyone thinks), and reading this thread makes me feel like I'm on a bad path despite never even considering it before.

FTR we are in our late 20s, in good shape, eat well, workout etc. But we definitely probably drink more than our friends so I'm just curious some of your thoughts.

Wheelzie, welcome to the thread. Everybody's got their own path and I can definitely relate to the aversion to the idea of a Higher Power. Most of us were not willing to even consider the idea until we felt we had no other choice.

I also just want to remind you and everyone that the idea of this thread is to be a supportive shared space for those struggling with issues related to alcohol and drugs. I moderate it with a relatively heavier hand than usual in order to try to preserve the tone and purpose.

I definitely don't think that any/all alcohol use is bad. Plenty of people drink, even to excess, and it's not a big deal.

Why have you and your wife talked about quitting? It sounds like the idea must have occurred to you prior to reading this thread.

NonPareil, have you and your wife tried cutting back, and maybe drinking only one evening on the weekend, or having just one bottle of wine, or something like that? Most people try cutting back before they try to quit. Some people can do it, but many find there's always a reason why it's okay to drink tonight because X, or why next week is a better week to start cutting back because Y. In that case, you really have to quit, at least temporarily. But maybe you'll be able to just cut back and drink normal levels like your friends. You'll never know until you try.

ok los feliz slim ok, i understand and was acting very sarcastically. it happens when you are at my stage in the game.

It's a lot of calories and we just both generally understand it is unhealthy. Like you shouldn't eat sweets in excess often, you shouldn't drink alcohol in excess often.

Sure, and we've not drank on weekend days (this is rare however) and truly we do it because it's fun. I guess it worries me that I look forward to it.

Also, I kind of just accept that it is harmful to me down the road but I think I accept the consequences for the enjoyment it brings.

I mean Gregorio, I think basically you are telling me I need to quit. Obviously, I respect that opinion that is why I'm posting. I'm just trying to learn where I stand while it isn't out of control (like I said I really don't feel like I have a problem at all but I'm certainly open to the idea I'm very wrong).

I think I could not drink at all for an extended period but what would that teach me? I certainly want to be able to drink, but this thread is very much confusing me. I still am having a hard time seeing where anyone that drinks isn't classified as having a problem to some degree.

I guess I'm entertaining the idea that this could be a problem down the road, but I was looking for opinions on this. Like Gregorio, you suggest I should try cutting back, and if I do that successfully, then what? Am I ever allowed to drink to excess on occasion etc.

TheNonPareil -

I don’t claim to know everything but I spent 10 years in and out of treatment, rooms, etc before getting sober and in the process saw a who’s who of medical professionals, psychiatrists, all sorts of different types of addiction specialists, and have heard a million different opinions on where addiction starts and how to tackle it. I believe with all my heart that the two most important questions you can ask yourself are “Is my drinking causing negative consequences?” and “Can I stop?” If your answers are yes and no to those respectively, you have a problem. That problem can end now or it can get worse than you could ever possibly imagine. Now, if you just have a hard time imagining stopping but there are no negative consequences, then in my opinion it’s not a big deal. Personally i can’t stop drinking caffeine or going to the gym, so yeah whatever I am addicted to both, but since they aren’t giving me negative consequences, it is fine. That’s the difference.

The other things (if I were you) I’d look at are:

1. Do you always feel like you want another one? Of all the “aha” moments I’ve had in realizing I was destined to be an alcoholic from the start, this really rang true for me. I could have NEVER seen alcoholism coming - I was ridiculously healthy, gym every day, and high functioning, for the first 12 years of my drinking.

2. Do you have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism (are you related to alcoholics or addicts)? You are absolutely without a doubt more prone to developing a problem if you have it in your DNA.

3. Is the amount you are drinking going up? Addiction is by nature progressive and can be extremely fast or extremely slow depending on environmental factors. Some people enjoy 2 beers a few nights a week for their whole lives. Alcoholics progress.

4. Do you black out? I don’t know what the medical reason would be for it, but the vast majority (not all of them though!) of drunks I’ve met know what it’s like to black out.

Just my 2c but I definitely wish someone would have pointed all this out for me earlier and afaik any addiction expert or drunk will agree with all of this.

All good my friend.

Very good post, thank you and post more!

I guess the only thing I'd add is that sometimes it's hard to say if drinking is having negative consequences. If you're getting arrested or losing jobs, sure. For me, it was having negative effects on my mental health, but I couldn't really tell because there were also other reasons for those mental health problems. Only way to tell then is stop drinking for a while and see if it improves.

Thanks LFS! I will. You’ve done a great thing here and good on you for sticking with it. I know it helps you too

ChrisV - yeah should have mentioned the consequences are pretty tough to see sometimes. And consequences don’t have to be jail. They can range from small to big, it is up to the person and that person alone to gauge whether or not they are negative. My brother smokes weed every day, lives in a van, and I’d say that a lot of people would look at him from the outside and say it’s had some negative effects. But I know he’s happy and content with his life and I’d never in a million years say that he has a problem. Anyways that’s a tangent but yeah. Everyone needs to be their own judge.

Yeah I guess I'd say that if you drink fairly heavily and are unhappy with your life/mental health/whatever, stopping drinking is one of the first things you should try to fix it.

I'm just suggesting cutting back because it seemed like you thought you were drinking too much. If you don't feel like cutting back, then don't. If you drink every F/S/S and drink to excess on occasion now, cutting back could be only drinking 2 days on the weekend and still drinking to excess on occasion.

If you're concerned about your drinking and your tolerance keeps going up, then you're going in the wrong direction. Drinking slightly less instead of slightly more is going in the right direction. If your tolerance keeps going up, or if you try cutting back just to see if you can do it and you can't, then you might need to quit altogether at least for a while. If it doesn't or if you can, and your drinking isn't having any negative effect on your life, then carry on.

Only you know what's motivating you to question whether you're drinking too much, what's motivating you to wonder, then what? if you cut back. If you're concerned about your drinking, seeing if you can cut back a little seems like a good place to start. If you're not really concerned about your drinking, then keep doing what you're doing and reassess later. There's probably a reason you're posting in this thread, but maybe you just want opinions on your level of drinking now, and that's hard to give a blanket statement about.

If you want a more objective assessment, here are the criteria for Alcohol Use Disorder Yes to 2-3 is consider mild AUD; 4-5 moderate; and 6+ severe