Haha I suppose this might prevent the "yes I do text" response I sometimes get.

I agree I prolly do use too many emojis but may had to be careful with these in the future.

Pay you in the Detroit poker crowd? Ever run into a taller black gentlemen grinder that goes by Pre?

I had already referred to that message a few times in our text convos so I made a point to avoid beating that dead horse on the date. However she did mention that most of the messages she gets from guys "suck".

My timing for it couldn't have been more awkward tbh. There was absolutely no physicality up to that point beyond the initial hug, none of the usual brushing up against each other when walking, etc. She def wasn't expecting it and maybe for a brief second thought I may be about to put her into a spot where she'll be forced to make a decision to comply with additional physicality or need to verbally shoot me down.

At the first bar, in the course of normal convo I asked her whether she would have let me pick her up prior to the date had I offered. I forget her response but to that I mentioned I like to offer because I'm a gentleman. She responded, with a smile, by saying something like "Well that's not good. I work in small office with all guys so..." Implying she can handle a certain level of ungentlemanly behavior I suppose. She did say on two occasions I can ask her anything, emphasizing that anything meant anything. I had to bite my tongue because the first question that came to my mind was "OK, what do I have to do to get you into bed?".

True, but I'd like to bone her. She was pretty fun / interesting and I think I was building some attraction at the second bar but simply could not sustain it very long on account of being very tired and stuffy headed to the point that my mind was running blank. Feeling more myself I likely would have suggested that we continue the evening by picking up a bottle of wine and drink it at her new apartment or whatever... if only to gauge her reaction in an effort to see where I'm at with her.

At the second bar, in response to something I cannot recall atm, in a non-insulting I said "You scare the **** out of me". She seemed intrigued by that and pressed me to explain why. I think I might text her sometime today saying "Although you scare me, I had a fun and definitely would like to see you again. blah blah". I may propose something for this weekend because 1) why not 2) just to see how she responds and if she responds.

You want to gauge someone's interest in you on a first date that hasn't gone incredibly well by offering to close the date by drinking in her apartment? And this is your normal behavior?

Yeah, I wasn't sure how to take that. I know I said "Oh, so that's why you're on OKC then?" or something to that effect. It came up again somewhere else in our conversation and she was like "well, you dropped that you were married and had a kid on me so...". In retrospect I think that may be some indication of interest? Sorta like "Hey maybe we're into one another a bit; you're taken aback by this about me but don't hold it against me, I was also caught by surprise at what you told me."

I can't really imagine a situation where rubbing someone's back while walking is a good idea. Basically no way for that not to be awkward.

Sounds like she was testing you a lot and you failed by being to passive and "gentlemanly".

I personally would never tell a girl I'm a gentleman. Only way I could ever see myself saying that is dripping with sarcasm. Doesn't mean you act like a dick, I'd still hold the door or grab her chair or whatever but let your actions speak for that. I doubt there is much more boring to a girl than having a dude kiss her feet because she is attractive.

I wouldn't say the date wasn't going well; she did agree to continue the evening at another bar to which, prior to arriving, she said she would pick up the bill. Where I was struggling was gauging her interest in me but it could be my cold / being tired. The proposal would not have been totally inappropriate given some of our convo, I would have said it along with a Cheshire grin and, at the risk of sounding conceited, most women find me decently good looking and though they may not be into my personality, are usually flattered when I up the stakes physically. Kinda like - I would sleep with this guy if he wasn't such an awkward dork.

I think I have a problem where I talk too much on dates maybe? I have been on a few of these online dates and I'm getting makeouts and some sex but then the girls aren't super excited to see me again.

I have a friend who is somewhat shy and reserved but he seems to get more sex to me and is way more introverted. I really wish there was a way to get girls super interested versus semi-interested/interested.

They are definitely interested but I have yet to run into a girl that "has to see me all the time." Perhaps because they are online and dating around? I'm basically meeting girls that want to see me when they have time but never make me a priority. I don't know how to really plug that leak. Maybe I suck at sex and I don't know it. At one point in my dating life a girl would be blowing me up to come over all the time (in college). Nowadays I'll have sex with a girl or have a long date where we fool around and then we won't speak for a few days after dates #2/3/4. Not sure if it's a sample size or me.

Any reading material or advice where I can improve on the girls being obsessed with hanging out with me?

Yeah, it was awkward. I'm still rough when it comes to finding spots. I suppose it's better than asking though (i.e. can I have a hug?), which I was doing on some of my earlier dates. Put a few more drinks in me and I'm usually smoother in the sense that I just do what I want opposed to debating whether doing something is right before acting. The gentleman in me is more "inexperienced dater" who is unsure of his reads on their level of interest.

Stop talking so much?

ETA: I've had two online girls tell me that their one major turn-off is not getting enough time to talk about themselves on their dates. They're obv attracted to you but maybe you're not allowing them to act on some need to be all about them, all the time?

Got another number. She is probably closer to the top of my range looks-wise and writes long messages. 24 year old nursing student (gotta be good somehow right?)

Oh yeah never ask, lol

ask questions, listen to answers, offer small anecdotes, ask more questions, let them talk, etc.

No girl has ever gone home from a first date and told her friends "what a dick, all he did was let me talk about myself"

Mohr,

The problem could be a lot of things. Sounds like you are good at developing a sexual chemistry but maybe aren't connecting on a personal level. Maybe you are coming across as too attached or not attached enough. Maybe the activities aren't exciting enough (like is it always drinks/dinner - go to apt-sex). Could also be sample size as you said.

My gut tells me you are probably an above average attractive guy but just might be a little boring so girls are willing to bang you but not date you?

Impossible to tell without more details tho.

ATF,

"She greeted me at the bar with an attempt at a handshake which I refused and gave her a quick hug."

"I didn't engage in much if any physical escalation"

"I did stroke her back briefly on the walk to the next place to which she sorta tensed up at in response."

It sounds like you're treating "physical escalation" as some sort of formulaic game rather than reading her body language cues and escalating at appropriate times.

yeah, what eldiablo said...although that's pretty much everyone's assessment of what you're doing wrong in general. You're too focused on these keywords and formulas and regimented ideas and thoughts....you've gotta "go with the flow" way more and have a set game plan way less

you just read way too much into everything and analyze the **** out of stuff to the point that it's ridiculous...in your TR you wrote:

She responded, with a smile, by saying something like "Well that's not good. I work in small office with all guys so..." Implying she can handle a certain level of ungentlemanly behavior I suppose.

She def wasn't expecting it and maybe for a brief second thought I may be about to put her into a spot where she'll be forced to make a decision to comply with additional physicality or need to verbally shoot me down.

I don't even know if these are good examples or not but if you're this rigid and analytical of everything, girls sense it and do not like it. Dates are supposed to feel relaxed and comfortable, not as if there are checkpoints and keywords that need to be said and accomplished.

And like I said before...don't ****ing mention you're a gentleman...either show her, or don't. Would you tell a girl you're fooling around with "I'm now going to take your pants off, followed by your underwear, and then I will go down on you" or would you just do it if the situation called for it? Would you tell a girl "I'm going to open the door for you" or would you just do it?

In general, you need to think a lot less. Start responding and reacting to the situation, not to your gameplan.

El D,

Definitely not formulaic beyond the initial hug. I'm simply not deft enough to even approach it from a formulaic standpoint. On this date, it was more along the lines of "I wonder how she'll react if I do this? Let's see." So super awkward obv. I did eventually begin touching her arm and whatnot within the normal flow of conversation at the second bar. I don't know if I've mentioned it but one consequence of being loyally married for so long is that I've forgotten how to indicate interest myself, at least beyond grunting and dragging them off to my cave so-to-speak. Hence, in an effort to chalk up experience, this is a volume game for me at the moment.

The issue is that there's a long period of time where going with the flow is going to be even more -EV than going in with a specific plan. There's a learning curve and in the long run just going with the flow is obviously the better option, but the current results for some people make them think not adjusting is superior.

Assuming the thought of "i wonder how she'll react..." crossed your mind for more than .5 seconds before you did it, this is like the definition of formulaic.

Girls stick around for what they value. In college, looks matter a lot more and a good looking guy will find plenty of girls to dote on him. As you get a bit older, looks matter less. Emotional depth, life skills/means, being good in bed are the things that draw girls in.

The first two take time to change and the easiest way to get what you want is to be good in bed. I've never met a guy who was very good in bed that girls weren't jumping to see again. If the girl isn't getting off pretty powerfully the first few times you have sex, feeling teased and excited, then you have to work on your skills here. You can ask a girl to help you with this, just tell her you haven't done it much and need some pointers and would love to learn to get her off perfectly. Most girls will be extremely helpful.

Not formulaic meaning I don't approach it such as: first I'll touch her arm, then I'll start touching her leg, then I'll move to the lower back, then I'll touch her face, an so on. The kind of approach that all the PUA material suggests is optimal.

In any event, I shot her a text - "you frighten me (: but I had a good time! I know you paused at my idea to ___ so how about I show you my art collection? It's all backed by cardboard but you did say you appreciate klass...". I'd put it at maybe 5% odds that she responds. Probably lower but I'm accounting a bit for the fact that I know she likes my "texting game" sarcasm.

Actually I think I'm pretty interesting and involved in a whole lot of things. I'm generally out 5-6 nights a week and have a job that requires a ton of social interaction. I have lots of stories from dating and friends. There are no awkward pauses and the girls are laughing a lot. By the way the girls do go out again but things seem to fizzle after 3-5 dates. Actually the girl I just went out with last night I had sex with on date #3 but didn't last night because she was up since 7 AM and said she was super exhausted. We stayed out until midnight and I thought I was going to get the invite back over but didn't. She said she'd make it up to me but I thought that was a really bad sign to go from date #3 sex to no sex and just making out on date #4. She was resting her head on my shoulder and grabbing me to make out with me so maybe it's not all bad and it was just a circumstance of her being tired. She's actually going away for 7 weeks to Europe so perhaps on her end she doesn't think it's a good idea to get clingy since 7 weeks is a ton of time away.

Overall every date ends in at least a makeout but after the date the girl then seems disinterested or is not clingy. I don't want clingy but I want the girl to be showing more interest outside of the dates. It seems like I'm not easily replaceable on the actual date but afterwards the girl seems to think I'm not special enough. Seems like somewhat of a common problem since I've lurked here.