That's pretty sex negative. I assume everyone is going to agree it's on the guy to make the moral decision for the woman, though. What if you don't want to pick things up another night?

It's clearly way morally worse to deescalate and act chivalrous and play with her feelings when you really just want to bang. He shouldn't be "tricking" her.

Also she clearly didn't decide to not have sex @Sandra, since she blew him. El D summarized how aziz kept awkwardly deescaating and asking consent. She's an adult capable of making decisions, not a child.

It’s only a matter of time until there is a consent app. If her phone is green you have consent to proceed, if she changes it to red and you proceed you’re dead.

Dace Chappell got it so right back in the day.

There are already at least two consent apps.

If you don't want to bang her another night then watch an episode of Seinfeld, tell her you had a great time but have to get up early, and call her a cab. Of course it's the woman's choice but going to the bathroom for five minutes then saying how uncomfortable counts as making her choice. She's telling you that she didn't enjoy feeling pressured into having sex, so pressuring her into have sex later the same nice is wrong. If you watch the episode of Seinfeld and then she asks you to bang, fine.

Dave Chappelle....man, I need to reread my posts.

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/jwmvxd...-love-contract

This. If you can't figure out she that she told him repeatedly she didn't want to have sex and/or you think Azizs behavior as described is completely reasonable, you can't read context and should seek explicit affirmative consent at every step, probably in a notarized contract. And if that means you have less sex, well, that's probably best for everyone involved.

TL;DR

This story is interesting not because of questions like, “Was it just a bad date with bad sex, or was it sexual assault?”; it’s interesting because it’s a great case study of a common sort of situation that occurs all the time, one that many (most?) women and men have been found themselves in some version of, or can at least imagine finding themselves in at some point. And while it’s a text-book example, it’s not just in some text book that a few thousand people read and discuss every year in their gender studies classes; it’s all over the media, being read and discussed by millions of people.

We’ve learned that dates like this are so common that many people feel that what transpired is not unusual and not really that bad. But we have a woman who was not comfortable with what was happening, and a man who was never going to force her to do anything she didn’t want to do, yet she comes away from the experience feeling sexually assaulted, and he comes away accused of sexual assault.

This is a terrible outcome. Nobody wants to feel sexually assaulted; nobody wants to be accused of sexual assault for what he believed was a consensual encounter. There is no reason this kind of thing should occur. So it’s great that people are now looking at a not uncommon situation, a situation most people can identify with to some extent, and are discussing it critically in order to understand how it happened and how to make it happen less frequently.

The problems are both societal and individual. We’ve normalized this kind of encounter enough that many people are comfortable minimizing it as a “bad date.” Many women who find themselves in this situation have trouble articulating their objections in the moment because they’ve been conditioned to think that this is just what happens on some dates. Many men think they’re expected to keep trying after they’ve been rebuffed, because as long as she doesn’t say “No!”, that’s just how things progress in a consensual sexual encounter. And in many cases they’re right: the woman feels like she has to resist a bit, but she expects, and wants him to keep trying. I’ve learned from this thread that if a woman tells you early on in a date “we’re definitely not having sex tonight,” that’s a good indicator that she is, in fact, going to have (consensual) sex with you.

In general, women need to become more comfortable being assertive in expressing what they’re consenting to and not consenting to, and feel like it’s okay to say no to anyone, at any time. Men need to worry less about doing everything they can to get laid, and more about only having sex with women who really do want to have sex with them.

On the individual level, Grace did many things poorly. She was naïve, hoping for a long romantic dinner followed by more romance once they got to his place, and a slow, caring physical escalation that may lead to sex (she’s probably having consensual sex with him if the date goes this way). It was clear early on that this kind of date was not on the table, yet she kept sticking around, hoping if she could get him to back off a bit he’d get the message and they could have the lovely romantic date she wanted. I think this is one of the reason’s she didn’t say, “No,” in no uncertain terms and just leave. She didn’t want the date to end; she just wanted it to be one way, but it was the other way. And she certainly gave him mixed messages. If she wanted him to back off, she probably shouldn’t have given him oral sex. Twice. None of this means she didn’t express a lack of consent, or that she deserved what happened, or that she wasn’t assaulted (or “violated,” if you’re going to get hung up on whether or not this meets the legal criteria for sexual assault).

And Aziz did many things poorly. He did not pick up on what were pretty clear signals that she was at least not very enthusiastic about what he was doing. He never checked in with her to make sure she was comfortable, despite her stopping what he was doing on many occasions, and even saying “‘Whoa,” and “I don’t want to feel forced,” and “How about we just chill.” He ended up making a woman feel like she was sexually assaulted, even though we know he is the type of person who will stop and call you an Uber if you make it clear to him that’s what you want. He does not end up in this situation, accused of sexual assault, if he makes an effort to be attentive to her cues, even if they are not as clear and direct and unambiguous as they could be, and if he makes an effort to ensure this is consensual.

What is important about this story isn’t “The Humiliation of Aziz Ansari”; it’s the critical discussion that emerged as a result of this story, the people who find fault with the societal norms around dating and endeavor to change them, and the people who examine their own behaviour and make changes so that a version of this story is less likely to happen to them.

Trying to be less snarky. For a variety of reasons, up to and including the threat of physical violence, women tend to indirect about saying no to sexual overtures. That's not going to change, and a forum that is 99% male saying 'well she should be more explicit' isn't going to change it. Maybe if this place were mostly women, that's a discussion that could take place (but its way more nuanced a debate than men realize). In this universe, though, indirect response is a fact of life, and men need to either learn to read context or be way more cautious about sexual escalation. That's the only way to be a decent person (and also protect yourself, if that's the framing you really want to go with). I recognize that's harder for some men than others, particularly those on the spectrum, but its flatly necessary.

It seems like this girl is upset because she couldn’t have her cake and eat it too. She was free to leave at any time if she was uncomfortable. He never took the power away from her to walk out and call an Uber. She was hoping for more from Aziz and all he wanted to offer her was sex. It’s not hard to read the signals and gtfo if you’re not down. This was simply a bad date. This is when you learn to make better decisions, develop standards, understand that you can always leave, and maybe start dating men around your own age. Instead she’s turning her embarrassment into spite.

From what I've read, Grace did not come out of her date feeling assaulted. Her friends convinced her of that.

Looks to me like the worst of the lot has been weeded out.

The blowback against 'Grace' shows that #MeToo is losing steam.

I'm not advocating using any position of power to pressure someone for sex.

But, the climate used to be that Bill Clinton sexually assaults lots of women, nobody gaf about that....including feminists. And Hillary, who attacked the accusers.

Anyway I believe there is going to be a higher standard of proof from here on out.

There have been a lot of interesting points and articles shown in this thread about this Aziz Ansari story. Certainly brought about a lot of debate too. That’s great. Now can we move this discussion somewhere else and end it here because I think everything that has needed to be said on this thread (and much much much more) about it has been said (over and over and over again). This isn’t the “what Aziz did was/wasn’t assault” thread, it’s not the “everyone needs to ask for consent” thread, it’s not the “pick up the cues and solve the consent puzzle” thread. I’m sure you could start any of those threads to some level of success, but can we agree to stop having them all converge here? That’d be great. Have a great consensual day everyone!

I agree. A new thread could be started, or those interested could join the one in Politics, here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/4.../index112.html

I'm in favour of quarantining the Ansari posts in a new thread.

I think this is about the perfect spot to end it. It is relevant to this thread though probably should have been more geared towards online dating experience.

The lesson is that the line is both blurry and fluid. Men need to make sure their dating/social behavior is beyond reproach.

Which should have always been the standard and I expect is, for most.

I started using OKCupid and MexicanCupid about a week ago to message girls in Mexico City. I don't arrive until February 7th, but I figured I might as well pipeline a bit. Although Mexico City is a pretty progressive city, it's still a super Catholic country, so ideas on dating/sex will be way different than other places where I've online dated in the past few years (France, Montreal, New Zealand).

Anyway, I'm getting a lot of the type of girl who wants to text a lot and it seems like way too much for someone you've never even met. Stuff like "how's your day?", "have a nice night!", "send me a pic of your Dinner!". Obviously a bit of texting between now and whenever we'd hypothetically meet in early February is to be expected, but some take it pretty far.

Normally, I'd probably just consider it a red flag and not go through with meeting up with a girl like that. In France, for example, out of 15-20 1st dates, all but 1 of those girls didn't really message at all before the 1st meet. The 1 exception ended up being weird. However, I'm wondering if maybe I should make an exception for Mexico because it's seen as more normal for the culture here and not an immediate red flag if a girl comes off as clingy. Maybe Clark or someone with experience dating Latin women might chime in.

Would you guys basically always be hesitant to meet a girl who was wanting to text a lot before even meeting once?

Sounds like a decent chance it's cultural. Personally I don't like when there is almost zero conversation before meeting. I'm sorta suspicious of a girl who would meet some random guy they know nothing about somewhere. I'm kinda paranoid about getting murdered or something. I do think you can talk way too much.

Yah, I mean I enjoy chatting with most of them, when it's getting to know each other. Some chatter is to be expected when we're still a few weeks out from even meeting.

It's more the girls who send a message just for the sake of sending a message. Like "sooo what are you doing now?" or "send me a selfie!". That seems bizarre even accounting for cultural differences and makes me think they'll almost always end up being super clingy.

Yeah I was chatting on WhatsApp with a young Venezuelan woman for a while. She said chatting with people from other countries was a form of travel for her. I was interested in her daily life and how she was getting by, since her country had turned into a, well, **** hole. Her plan was to move to Argentina and enroll in school. We lost contact when the protests started getting violent. Hope she's made out ok.

On OKCupid it has always been typical to message quite a bit before meeting.

The author of the original aziz article has questionable mental stability. That email she sent Ashleigh Banfield was... something.

Back on topic

23 year old softball girl(formerly 22) confessed she has an eating disorder and has been doing stuff like texting me how she can't be fat or no one will want her, or pics of herself with a comment she feels disgusting. It's been agreed we don't want a boyfriend girlfriend relationship, FWB at most. What am I supposed to do here? I've been alternating between sympathetic amateur psychologist texts and ignoring her. SGT RJ, are you out there?

On a lighter note, she also wants to have freaky BDSM style sex, to include anal. We've penciled it in for next Monday when she gets back into town. I have handcuffs and lube, but no rope or whips or anything. What are the best materials to tie a woman up with and where should I shop for them? Maybe also a good question for RJ

I think she agreed to videotape it!? Can I get banned for distributing amateur porn through PM?

that went Zero to a Hundred real quick.

Can’t get fat from shoving penis up your butt. 🤷*♂️