That's for sure.

Chiddy:
Actually, she sucked it twice before leaving.

Clark:
Did Aziz act awkward, overaggressive, insensitive, and like an entitled celeb - certainly yes to varying degrees. He obviously could and perhaps should have done a lot better. And I assume her recounting of the story is pretty much accurate. But I also think there are a lot of her actions that don't really make sense in the bigger context of her feelings after the fact. No need to get into a detailed dissection (though we can if you want), but while Aziz bears responsibility for his actions, so does she for hers.

Surprisingly, a great many women took her to task as well as Aziz in the comments after the article for her actions.

Which I wouldn't expect, as up to now this social movement always sided with the woman who made claims of sexual harassment.

It’s almost as if the facts and circumstances of each case matter.

Yeah, almost

Perhaps should have is quite generous. He should have. He kept browbeating her til he was left with no choice but to let her go or rape her. It should have ended well prior.

I know you agree she is totally allowed to decide whatever she wants whenever she wants. She very clearly decided no during the encounter (this isn’t debatable Yeti. I don’t need someone’s long firm take debating to the contrary - it’s quire self evident in the story). That she didn’t want to. He never asked for affirmative consent and used the power dynamic of the situation to try and wear her down because hey that works sometimes! But it’s unequivocally not ok.

That she could’ve been even more clear or forceful or whatever really isn’t relevant here. She did more than enough.

I just gotta say, I don’t believe I’ve ever asked for verbal affirmative consent in my life. Anyone else? I guess I’m just a rapist then?

https://youtu.be/y4bAULTwAJU

Interesting.

I've asked for verbal consent when going any farther than kissing with anyone ive hooked up with. This is not a lot of people, but still.

Had a date with a recent divorcee/poly/kinky coug last night. She was very sexual in all of her messaging, yet when we met, she mostly wanted to talk about the importance of consent (she hadn't heard about the whole Aziz story) and her sugar daddy -_- Pretty sure I nodded off at one point...

I did for (I think) the first time this weekend. Definitely felt a bit unusual, I'm usually not the overly pushy and aggressive type though so usually I think it's pretty clear what's going on.

ETA: Thinking about it some more, I've probably done it before, just in less direct ways. Oh well.

I've certainly never asked in an explicit post-Weinstein way, but then I've never been asked either.

In my view, with a few exceptions, it's usually fairly easy to read women's cues on how up for various things they are. However, I've always been about waiting till a third or fourth date to invite them over to mine for dinner, by which point many women are usually more comfortable to have sex, and there is less ambiguity about what they're happy to do.

If the account is the way the woman described, Ansari comes across as not very perceptive and probably awkward with women in general.

Of the occasions where I've had sex on the first date, I can't remember a time where it wasn't the woman who made it explicit that's what she wanted. It doesn't really suit me to be in that zone where you think you may be able to sleep with her on the first date but don't know for sure, much easier to say goodnight and live another day. I'm not that desperate for sex that I'm willing to risk discomfort on her part or maybe even jeopardise a future with someone if they're worth it.

I've never been in a situation where I sensed a woman felt she was pressured into going too far in my company. The last two girls who slept with me actually made it clear there would be no funny business. And yeah yeah, there are sometimes those who say that but are up for it anyway, but reading the difference between those two cues isn't hard.

Many men seem to think it is silly/ruins the mood/not needed to explicitly asking for consent before inserting their penis inside a woman’s body. The whole reason that’s necessary is this situation. Let’s give Aziz the benefit of the doubt for a moment……we can be really bad at recognizing reluctance (Sandra, I’m sure most sides feel they never pushed to far or violated someone in some way....that’s also not reconcilable that most women will say it has happened to them at some point). We are likely especially bad when it is so close to what for many is the entire objective of the night, we are horny and likely have a little booze in us. “she came this far, obviously she wants it” is the thought process.

So yes we need to explicitly ask “is this ok” or some variant thereof (and it’s actually awesome to do so….as in it’s hot – the woman is SAYING SHE WANTS YOU, and as a bonus feels relieved and comfortable you’re not one of the *******s, and she will show you how grateful she is for this simple act). It’s just not weird at all. “Is this ok”, “do you want it” are easy and don’t destroy any moment. Like I said it’s pretty sweet and hot to get that yes response.

I think it behooves is as humans to slow down at times and doing our best to sense if there’s reluctance and actually desist sometimes when it seems maybe all isn’t right, so she has a chance to breathe and assure us all is well. Ask questions and seek affirmative answers if there’s any doubt at all. And guess what, overwhelmingly the answer after that is to pull you in for an awesome kiss and have awesome sex. There’s no downside.

I’d venture to guess almost all sexually active hetero men have been with a woman who “gave in” and had sex when she really didn’t want to. And most of us have/had no idea. That’s not affirmative consent.

Good post. I doubt it becomes anything like that and more about finagling out a technical yes.

Yeah, there are a lot of deluded guys out there, agreed.

If guys can't trust themselves enough to not suck at reading cues then yes, they should ask for consent in whatever way they think will work.

I've never asked a girl outright for her consent in my life. I'm pretty sure none of the women I've slept with have been in tears in the cab home/following morning at how much of a creepy monster I was. There are so many stages of the evening you can take your cues from. There are so many ways you can escalate physical contact gradually to make it natural and to give her a chance to give you information either way. If she seems uncomfortable, I will ask if she's ok and stop. It's within my own interests to keep her feeling safe and be as perceptive as I can. Not sure why this logic doesn't trump the primal urges for most guys.

Again assuming the Babe account is accurate, if Aziz's behaviour is the benchmark for an everyday level of sexual creepiness the male sex isn't doing well.

There's a simple answer to this.

We aren't far removed from the days when it "didn't matter."

What’s the downside to asking?

It's awkward. If you know the cues you're looking for consent is easy when it's non verbal. I appreciate that it seems a lot of guys don't have a clue though so should find a way of getting consent that doesn't suck.

Unsurprisingly there's a slew of terrible advice online about 'sexy ways' to ask. I believe women in general want to **** guys who are confident enough that they already know she wants it. That doesn't stop other women from vomiting their appalling advice to guys about how they should approach consent.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ambe...b_9789458.html

Just because 'Amber Amour' is imagining Brad Pitt or selected heartthrob whispering the likes of

14. "Do you want me to stop?"
16. "Is it okay if I touch you down there?"
21. "Do you want me to wear a condom?"

to her and it's still sexy for her, doesn't mean it isn't a ridiculous thing for some average schmoe to phrase something to a woman in the bedroom.

There are some decent ones on that list to be fair. I say 'you like that?' all the time. But I would argue something like that is just part of effective dirty talk rather than crossing the semantic line into actively getting enthusiastic consent. If it's enough for me just to say 'You like that?' and get an answer in the affirmative then consent is all good by me, but I don't get the impression that's widely seen as good enough by today's standards.

It’s super not awkward. Like, at all. And it doesn’t need to be done for every action. But for insertion, yes.

I've never asked for consent either, probably never will, but then: A) I'm never aggressive in pushing boundaries and B) I freaking love foreplay and 98% of the time it's the girl saying "omg I need you, grab a condom".

Like Sandra, I'm not that hard up for sex and don't mind going without if I don't think she's totally into it. I've never had 1st date sex without her making it explicit that it would happen.

Usually when we're getting down to it, I love foreplay so don't mind spending a long time kissing and fooling around. Usually I will go down on her for awhile (I love doing it) and often she will be so turned on she'll say something like "I need you inside of me now!", which is even hotter than Clark's yes b/c it's verbally unprompted.

I'm fairly well read on female sexuality and the differences between how men/women think about it and get aroused. Honestly, I'm not sure why more people aren't doing this. There are tons of easy/fun reads on Amazon, it's eye opening/enlightening, and your sexual performance usually goes way up. It's a lot like poker or online dating really. There's some skill to it and if you put in the time, then you can improve a lot at it. For most of us, sex is extremely important, but even dudes with presumably tons of experience like Aziz seem clueless.

Agree totally, it's not surprising everyone's being told that they have to ask for consent when most guys still seem to be the primitive climb on, climb off slob that Louis CK portrays so poignantly in his act (and possibly in real life...)

If you're not asking for consent before you have sex then you're part of the problem. Clark has highlighted why this is important and how easy it is.

Its not awkward at all to ask and I've never once heard any girl complain that asking them for consent was a bad thing.

And yes, you should even be getting affirmative consent in relationships and there are a variety of ways you can do this without any negatives. If the answer is anything other than an indisputable yes then you should be asking yourself (and her) if you should continue.

To those of you who have never gotten consent, what makes you think this is ok? Have you really never been told to seek consent before having sex? If you have been told that before then why do you brush it off?

If that's what she wants. If she's ok with implicit consent then that's ok too. It's her choice.

Like what reading material, fossil kid?