If you wait until the fourth date for a kiss...you're bad at kissing. And the guy who is willing to wait that long for you has no other options, so you shouldn't be dating him anyway.

Women...

In any event, I'm meeting a girl from POF at 3am when she gets off work tonight...fingers crossed for fun.

I agree with this sentiment. The first date just needs to be not bad, but the second date should actually be good to continue seeing someone. No kiss = automatically not good.

Woman's perspective on this:

Nope.

If a guy needs my kisses and more ASAP, may be he has no other options. And it is plain boring if only sexual side is in the middle of the whole thing.

If a guy waited until the third date to try to kiss you, you would be asking your girlfriends "WTF is wrong with him?!?! Or WTF is wrong with me?!?!?!?". And that's only if you let it go to a third date without making any sort of move. The 1950s are over. There are no sock hops or box socials for you to meet your clean cut crew cut dream guy Chip.

Thought a little more about this..... I mean, If a guy would make zero moves to come somehow closer to me for three dates, I would be wondering, if something is wrong with him or me. So in this you are right. But....

I would never stop dating a guy, because there are no moves from the guy's side. At some point I would take initiative in my hands. But I would definitely stop if the guy wouldn't be able to get clues from me and slow down his moves.

That a date without a kiss= bad date is definitely wrong. I go a lot dancing and had numerous great dates without any kissing.

I have no clue what exactly do you mean with "clean cut crew cut dream guy Chip". But there are plenty of men who are interesting for me to date and plenty of places, where I can meet them.

Guys usually measure dates by physical milestones. Did we kiss, did we fool around, did we have sex, etc. Any non-1st date for me where we don't at least kiss feels like a failure, even if the date otherwise went well.

Case in point, my post from a couple days ago. It was a 2nd date, I had a fun time, but didn't make a move. So for me, I'd probably rate the date a 3/10, whereas if I'd sealed it with a kiss an 8 or 9. For her, she'd probably say a 6 or 7 even sans kiss. She quickly agreed to my 3rd date request and is a cute girl who likely gets lots of attention on the site we met on, so I guess I did something ok (other than not making a move yet).

I thought third date was sex, not a kiss.

I'd definitely think something was wrong with me or him if he hasn't made a move to kiss me by the end of the second date.

And what would you do then?

Anal

As I mentioned before, out of the 7 girls I've slept with here in France,each one happened by the 3rd date. So I'd agree that normally 3rd date = sex.

I saw the aforementioned girl again tonight for our 3rd date, we had one drink each at 2 different bars, walked around a bit, and went to a spot with a nice view of Lyon where I finally kissed her and we made out for about 10 minutes. I'm starting to lose a bit of interest though b/c this girl seems reserved and not very affectionate. It's pretty strange for a French girl IME.

I'm not sure if I made enough progress to make asking her over to my place for a movie and delivery plausible for the next date, but I may just say F it and ask anyway. I have another prospect and a few other candidates in the pipeline, so I won't be too devastated if I lose this one.

Lapka,

They are saying (me too) that a second date without a kiss, assuming one was attempted, is time to abandon ship. At a minimum IMO at that point the woman has some unhealthy hangups around physical intimacy. It's just a kiss.

This is true for me for every woman I've ever slept with from online. I think all the irl ones I either slept with that night or on the first actual "date" after chatting them up a few times in a group setting

There was one girl who I did lots of stuff with on dates 2-5, but she saved penetration as special and I never hit it. possibly because she came easily but didn't like to go for more than one orgasm.

What would I do? Well, other than overthink the issue, because LDO, if he proposed a third date I'd probably work up the nerve to ask about it either before or during. It's not just women who can be prudes, and while I certainly don't object to getting to know one each other first, I'm not dating anyone with significant sexual hang-ups, psychological or religious or whatever. I'm old, ain't got time for that ****.

The last part does not compute. Part of the awesomeness of being a quick climaxer is you can then have more. Many more. Da ****?

Yes, got divorced two years ago. Read this thread a lot as I learned to be single for really the first time in my adult life. I'm bad at texting, but once I get an actual date, close the deal at what feels like a really high % and rarely am denied a chance for a second date. My text messages tend to be a few basic ones then asking if they want to meet about 4 messages in. Anything more in general seems like a bigger risk of losing them than the chance of sealing the deal. I'm far better at online dating than bar pickups, but I'm getting better at them.

OK, funny story from last night:

Got a 9pm first date with what seems like a very solid looking Brazilian woman. On a Friday which is both odd but typically an ok sign. But realistically it's 9:45 o/u, it's Brazil.

Go out with a friend to some hostel party and arrive at 8:15. Message if 9:00 is ok at 8:40 (I had just ordered a burger, had no dreams date would be on time). At 8:59 she says she's running late. Eventually I leave my friend at 10:15 and my date and I meet at 10:50.

She arrives. Decidedly thicker than her photos indicate but not fat. She's like a 7. She starts slamming beers. In Brazil you buy 600ml bottles and pour in tiny like 6oz cups. She's almost shotgunning them. Talking talking talking. I get in some small kisses but nothng really open mouth.

We go to another nearby bar to meet her gay best friend and 3 other friends of his. After 15 minutes of drinking on the patio, I get another baby kiss or three in. She goes inside after one of the dudes goes in. like 20 mins pass and I go in to see what's up. She's in back head down over a bucket. I go back out and chat with the dudes, they're fantastic. We are talking a little in Portuguese and one notes that he thinks she was at Happy Hour for a while before our date, could explain the vomiting. Another 20 minutes later I pop in and she is dead passed out laying down on a bench.

It's now 1:25am and I booty call a super hot Chilean woman (she's like an OOT 8.5 and a solid 10 in the sack...top 3 sex partners I've ever had) I've been hooking up with. She lives near the bar district I was at. Instantly get a "Hey, I'm drinking only a 10 minute walk from you, come on by". Her gay friends leave right as I arrive (yeah, don't know what the deal is with single women and lots of gay friends here but hey, they are invariably awesome dudes) We drink some beers, head back to my place, have great sex, sleep in, have breakfast in the AM and all ends well.


Epilogue: This AM I got an apology text. She's messaging now angling for me to offer a second date butnahhhhhh.

Lapka,

I've been out of the game awhile now. Maybe it'd a cultural thing, but you seem very weird from an American perspective. And it's not like Americans are the most sexual in the West.

I was never really into casual sex after my mid 20s. We didn't have to be officially dating or anything, but I wanted to know someone a little bit. But the last time I went on a "dating date" was with my now wife. The chemistry was obviously there on our first date. And although I had no intentions of banging (not that she knew that), it woulda been weird AF if I didn't go for a kiss at the end of the date given how well it went.

It's like, why wouldn't you go for it? We're obviously attracted to each other and we didn't meet at a Mormon Tabernacle Choir show. She probably would have thought I was some total weirdo if I didn't.

Minutewoman I guess.

Some women get tender like a man does after sex, unusual but not unheard of.
Or she got hers, don't care about yours.
Just like some men

That's how I thought of it; they were like men. I had a weird run of girls who were at least one of the two. Tho the one I didn't sleep with got super chatty afterwards so def the female stereotype there

I didn't know post orgasmic hypersensitivity could last as long in women.

Live and learn. What a downer, tho.

^^
This. If this is true, the there is no discussion about it. I am totally pro-kissing, if both want it. Don't get me wrong. I am also pro sex and am probably more liberal than many of you in it. My argument was against measuring a quality of a date on "Was there a kiss or not." and also against actually any strict rule like "second date -> kiss" "third date -> sex".

I myself often don't know after two dates, what I want. And it is always nice, when a guy doesn't try to run a script "How it should be" on a date, but there is some kind of communication. Something like reading each others signs. Like talking or so....?

Well this is interesting:

So I matched with this girl on Tinder a couple weeks ago, super cute and great body, so at first I thought it might be a bot since usually my matches are in the 4-6 range. She said she was just looking for sex and was in an open relationship and liked that I mentioned yoga and meditation in my short bio since she has similar interests. We went back and forth discussing sex for a couple days and then set up a meeting at my place. She jumped on my lap after about 5 minutes and it's all been great since then. We've met 3 times total so far.

Now the interesting part:

She tells me that her boyfriend is a cuckold and she wants to set up a night where we all meet together for a drink at my place, and when the bf goes off to take a piss we slip into my room and start ****ing with the idea that he catches us and feels humiliated.

It's a bit out of my comfort zone, but she tells me he's been cuckolded for awhile and she controls his pleasure. I'm a bit worried he might get pissed and try to attack me or break stuff in my place, but I guess if it's been going on for awhile that he's probably used to it. It could be a spectacular disaster, but I guess why not try?

I've had the same request before. Thought about it but turned it down. Seemed like a trap.

Doesn't seem like risk/reward ratio is there IMO

Offer to do it at her place ?

Background story? Had you already had 1-on-1 sex a couple times with the girl before?

What's the trap? They come to my apartment and steal stuff?

Did you see her anymore after you turned down the request?

Yah, I'm on the fence as to what to do. This girl is really attractive, the sex is amazing, and she's pretty knowledgeable to boot. We were talking about ayurveda and naturopathy in person and she obviously knew her stuff, so she wasn't just blowing smoke up my ass trying to gain my confidence or whatever.

On the other hand, I could just tell her I'm not comfortable with this arrangement and there's a strong chance she wants to keep seeing me anyway. And if not, maybe it was because they were up to no good and I dodged a bullet.

Yah, this would probably be wise if I decided to go through with it.