All of my advice is specific to jmakin in this situation.

right, getting away from that toxic boat situation and all of those clowns should be a very high priority.

but he should be very valuable to a company given his education and age/maturity and from what I have read average starting salary for jr devs in that area is 100-120k.

and not to brag, but jr devs in cleveland get a lot more than 50.

I am not saying J should stop looking for something better. My point is that if you've given an offer acceptance, you should probably go. You can still look for better opportunities while working there but accepting then backing out of acceptance burns bridges.

Except in the NFL, where you're promised to be next up to coach New England.

It seems like a fine ethical line to me. If you have accepted an offer, and a better offer comes along during the interim period, it seems ok to tell #1 "no thanks".

However, once you've started, it seems as if you should remain for at least six months to a year for a couple of reasons: One, give them some legitimate payback on their investment, and two, to not look like a job hopper.

I put one caveat on this, though: if you get in new place and discover, "holy ****, they misled me/I absolutely hate the position", then it's good to get out for your own sake.

chopstick's right about the organization, though: it doesn't give a **** about you. Individual people in any organization may care about you, but the company does not.

Maybe my notion of 'being fair to the company' is antiquated and should be ignored. The job hopping part might still apply. That's you doing the best for you though, not for the company. (If companies still look at length of time in a position when interviewing. Not sure on that, it used to be a red flag.)

You should obviously continue looking until you’ve accepted a job. At that point, it might make sense to commit yourself to it for a year to see how you like it. Interviewing and exploring other options is fine, but it can distract from your commitment to where you are. That’s not some moral obligation — chop is exactly right — but rather a practical one. You’re likely to perform better at your job if you’re emotionally committed to it, if even temporarily.

golddog,

Please reconcile these two things.

I’m almost 100% going to accept the offer tomorrow if it’s formally offered in case that isnt clear

Interviewing after I’ve accepted something official seems silly. But if there’s no paperwork involved in the offer - I will keep looking

Not sure I can. It's an ethical thing to me. Even though the company doesn't give a **** about me, I should be above that, and honor my word. Once I've started working somewhere, I should give them my best for an undetermined period of time. Not saying it makes sense.

Not everything needs to be cutthroat, always-doing-whats-best-for-me.

As I said, though, that notion may be out-of-date.

Of course, I also made the caveat that the job might be very different than what you expected, and you can't take it.

Anyway, let's not derail any more, and wish jmakin well with his new endeavor.

Good point, jmakin, on the paperwork. Until you have something in hand, signed by someone with hiring authority at the new employer, which outlines the parameters of your compensation, you don't have a job. You just have a discussion which sounds nice.

J,

You should negotiate any offer you receive. Almost all companies expect you to negotiate, and the initial offer reflects that.

+1. You don’t want to overdo it, but negotiation is definitely the standard play here.

You should keep looking anyway at all time points. That was my biggest mistake in my first job: to stop looking and treat the job like it is forever. The trick is to give 100% in the job but continuously to look for something more interesting. It costs often a bunch of effort, but my job satisfaction skyrocketed after I learned to change jobs fast.

It forces you also to do another thing, which you should do anyway: keep your resume and whatever other things you need for applications in USA updated and top notch.

And I know that with your brain you would prefer to stay at the same place till retirement.

dont really know how to negotiate

my mental state is likely to be ****ty tomorrow, just gotta do the best with what i have

i'm going to hopefully get a solid written offer, if one isn't made, I'll say I'm looking to make a firm commitment because I'm weighing my options at other companies right now but I like what I see at this one and want to move forward as solidly as possible

if a solid offer is made, I will ask if there is any wiggle room, and if not, if it's possible to reevaluate after x months.

but I'm going in there with basically no leverage and any offer they throw at me i'm likely to jump at and i feel you guys must know this.

I decided last night that I'm actually really unhappy with my life and I've been fooling myself thinking otherwise. i want out of this **** job and this **** apartment ASAP and getting a solid offer tomorrow's the best way out for me.

if something tomorrow gets ****ed up my depression's coming back full bore and i know it. i have a lot riding on this right now.

I've done research on salaries for this area and some research on job offers, i know it isn't common to get one and have it rescinded but it does happen. I'm not going to up and quit my job tomorrow but if i accept I'm definitely not going to spend what is almost certainly going to be an insanely busy next 3 months for me with school with more interviews which i ****ing hate

Get a good night's sleep, be properly hydrated, and have enough food/energy.

Be prepared to answer awkward questions, it is impossible for you to be over-prepared for things that may make you uncomfortable. Some of these might not even be legal to ask in California anymore, but people usually dont give a ****.

Be careful with saying things too specifically about "weighing other options", if they are worried about losing you, they are going to immediately want to understand more about this. If they are willing to pay you 70-80k but are about to lowball 50k, they won't want to get caught with their pants down and be against a much better offer. You run the risk of facing a million questions if you give some vague answer about this being one of several choices.

I would look to maybe make small talk and build a bit of rapport by saying something like "well to be honest, after 4 weeks I was disappointed because I thought you weren't going to get back to me, so maybe I do have another couple offers coming, but otherwise I don't expect another one imminently". This is possibly going to be a divisive point, but I think avoiding the awkward lying if the person becomes paranoid you might not accept is a win here.

When they make you the offer, it might be worth it to just have some cheesy line prepared. Something like "I know that I'm supposed to go back and forth with you, and get an offer from another company, but I came in here wanting to make (70-80k), and if you give me an opportunity in that range, I'll be ready to get started asap, and I am incredibly excited about what you do here, and absolutely cannot wait."

While I think in the grand scheme of things, making an extra 20-30k over the next 12 months is incredibly insignificant compared to getting the absolute **** out of your current job/apartment/gf/life, it is a very small amount of your time with a large amount of leverage for your future. It won't hurt you to be a strong advocate for yourself.

It is clear you are going to be very effective at this job, so there is no need to sell yourself short.

J, absolutely do not sell yourself short by not negotiating at all.

oh man i cant do this.

i'm the silent but strong type not a gabber.

i can be chatty and likeable but only if i click with someone and have had a few drinks (honestly if i walked in there tomorrow slightly buzzed I'd probably perform much better), plus this hiring manager is a real quiet awkward guy. we never hit it off from day 1 and there's kind of a language barrier i think, at least on my end, i have a really hard time understanding him.

it's a small company so i dont know if any offer they make really has a lot of wiggle room to begin with.

he wanted me to come into the office ASAP when he called me tuesday, and I'm kind of paranoid that the reason for this is they're extending a similar offer to multiple people and are just gonna grab the one that says yes quickest or for the lowest amount of money.

that's the only way I see me not working there this summer. but, i pretty much do believe him when he said they got crazy busy and didnt get back to me quickly enough, i get that. it is a really small company and like someone said before disorganization can be a big factor in a small company like that.

This. There is a serious chance you could get an extra 5-10k/yr, no questions asked. And because salaries are pretty sticky, this is a massive amount of money, because it's really an extra 5-10k/year (+compounding?) for as long as you stay in the industry. There's absolutely no downside to negotiating either.

Also would echo El D's earlier point that 50k/yr for a UC comp sci major feels really light, unless of course you're getting appropriate equity.

I've been hesitant to offer an opinion, and it seems you're moving past boats, but milk cartons aren't particularly easy to drive and you're qualified/capable of driving anything someone offers up. IF you want to drive boats you could have your choice and be well employed within a few weeks. Yachts, ferries, deliveries, take your choice.

You should have quit your job long ago. You know it, I know it, all of OOT knows it. You're better than that, you know it, I know it, all of OOT knows it.

I've no insight to the tech, or academic, world but it sounds like the rest of OOT has your back. Just make sure you're balancing your future career w/ how you'd like to actually spend your days.

It sounds like you're keen to move on to the next phase. Ime everyone tends to hold onto the past, or be fearful of change, despite the fact that change is highly cathartic.

Step up, you're a Captain. You're sought after in multiple fields. Go forth and do the **** you want to do.

Agree that as much as you don't like it (I hate it myself), you have to negotiate and back yourself now and throughout your future career. IME these companies will always look to get you as cheaply as they can, even if they know how good you are.

No matter what happens, things are going to work out just fine.

Going to have to disagree with the OOT consensus on negotiating here. It's not optimal to just snap accept their initial offer, but it's also not a huge error given your specifics.

Seems like a lot of the folks advocating negotiating are not taking into account:
- your desire to escape the milk carton NOW
- your lack of negotiating skills
- this would be your first job in the new field
- how often people switch companies in tech
- your anxiety related to a massive life change
- your inaccurate self market valuation
- etc

Negotiating is clearly the optimal approach, but that doesn't necessarily make it the right one, given your circumstances.

If you are at all concerned about it and want a simple negotiating plan, just go in with the plan to ask for 110% of what they offer, which will guaranteed be in the range of the position budget. If they offer 50k, tell them you are looking for at least 55k. They will be expecting you to ask for at least 60k and will snap accept your counter.

If there is any pushback or if you aren't comfortable with making a counter, then another approach is to say you were looking for more but are willing to accept now with the agreement that compensation will be addressed again in 90 days during a post-probationary period performance review. You will be much more comfortable having this discussion after having already been there for 90 days.

I think its kind of weird they didnt give you general offer details over the phone nor email.

anyway, fwiw I didnt negotiate my offer at all and they told me beforehand they werent willing to negotiate. my offer was pretty generous and decently higher than my peers though. if I had another solid offer I would have been much more likely to. also, knowing what I know now, esp with what JoeC said about stickiness of salaries and being tethered to starting salary, I would be much more inclined to negotiate and that means even pursuing a situation where its feasible.

Avg salary in my area is $64,000 for the position I’m seeking

Average salary, or average starting salary?

I want to address this if i can, for all the experience I have on the milk carton, I'm not a very experienced captain.

For one, the boats I drive are extremely difficult to drive because they have one propeller on each end and a rudder on each end as well. This makes them drive quite unlike any other kind of boat, most people with prior boating experience are completely unable to learn them. In fact the more experience you have, usually the worse you do.

I've driven small twin prop boats and I'm just bad at it. I can dock them in a pinch but I need a LOT more practice and I don't feel comfortable or safe at all, probably because I'm so used to the precise maneuverability of the boats I usually drive. I can put them to the inch where I want them, and it would take years if I'm able to learn how to drive a twin prop like that (if I'm even able to).

I have no doubt I could learn but I'd be going into a position basically starting from square 1. I don't know much about the practical side of running a boat, I have no relevant experience in anything but running dinner boats and even then not much. I can pump out a marine head, I can tie a line to a cleat, and that's about all I know how to do. Engine wise I'm not savvy. And if I got a job on a larger charter, I'd be hired as a mate and not a captain.

Another issue is my license is very small. My license is so small they don't even issue them. The smallest issued license from the coast guard is a 50 ton inland, and they gave me a 25 ton for some reason. This means I basically can't drive anything but the boats I drive right now.

I can upgrade but it's a hassle that I don't really want to deal with. In other words I feel much, much more confident about my skills as a programmer than my skills as a boat captain. It's just not for me.

yes all of that