What's going to happen to these people now? I doubt they'll be sleeping very easily from now on.

Thirty now known dead. Up to 76 believed missing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-en...ondon-40239008

Does this sort of read like a passive-aggressive threat to start a fire to anyone else?

the thought crossed my mind that it might've been started by some nutter who was sick to death of being fobbed off by the council as a way of proving a point, or maybe by some bnp dickhead given the residents seem to be largely minorities

wrong of me to speculate out loud tho really, best to wait for the facts

They've just said on BBC News that the police haven't found any evidence to suggest arson and are treating it as an accident at this stage.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems a tad irresponsible to wrap buildings in highly flammable material.

From what I understand, and I've just read news reports, the cladding wasn't very flammable but it was more flammable than a slightly more expensive alternative (which didn't insulate heat as well). It is possible that the material wasn't the problem but the "firestop", which prevents/impedes spread of fire from floor to floor was to blame.

So far it appears that the fire started with a faulty fridge in the one-bed apartment of taxi driver Behailu Kebede, on about the fourth floor. He has been interviewed by police and is extremely distressed.

The fire should not have spread outside that apartment so fast or so easily. Not even if he left the front door open. Firefighters say they were on site six minutes after his call. (As lastcardcharlie said, a one-apartment fire in a tower is, or was, fairly normal. The walls, floors, doors and ceilings are designed to contain it. Hence the fatal advice given by police to people who called 999 -- 'Stay where you are, put a wet towel under the door and wait for rescue.' That used to work, and police and firefighters don't want people dying of smoke inhalation or falls trying to make it down the stairwell. But something went nightmarishly wrong here.)

Video shows flame climbing the full height of the tower, on the outside, in 30 seconds. That implicates the cladding: the materials, the design or the quality of fitment.

Journalists, asking the relevant firms if the required fire stops were installed at each floor in the cavity between the skin and the insulation of the cladding, have been treated to 'No comment.' So we don't know. But it's more difficult to say 'No comment' to a judge-led public inquiry.

There's now going to be a big business in cladding removal/improvement.

------------------

I used to manage apartment buildings and there were a lot of fires. The one thing that I'm happiest about is that there was only a single death (the fire dept said it was his own fault) and no injuries.

This is a pretty sad tale...


Also, heard about a mom who flooded her bathtub & sink, which flooded apartment and saved her. Not sure if true of not, but I am filing that one away in case of emergency.

Her name's Natasha Elcock. Good survival drill.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...flooding-flat/

why didn't it fall to the ground like the WTC

I was wondering about getting into the bath. Then I remembered that some people that got caught in the Melbourne bushfires back in 2008/09 were boiled alive after trying that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...years-earlier/

This makes me angry more than anything else, the people that made these decisions need to be put away for life imo

Is there a way to estimate for how many people would have died if there were proper evacuation procedures? Am I correct to think the number would be low single digits?

(on the very large numbers of people in Slovakia in similar blocks with retro-fitted insulation)
It's not really been reported here as been definitely caused by the insulation.

I did find one forum discussion on "could this happen here". The feeling is that the thickness of polystyrene used directly on the concrete and plastered over without the insulation gap wouldn't burn quick enough or hot enough to start a fire through the concrete panel inside the flat itself. There is also supposed to be a fire-break every three floors in the insulation - though the firms are cowboys anyway.

"Stay in place" is/was the proper evacuation procedure for blocks of this type. The risks from people inhaling smoke, getting trampled or getting in the way of the fire brigade were thought far more likely to be fatal than the risk of fire spreading through solid concrete walls.

You don't evacuate an entire street just because one house is on fire and in normal circumstances there is probably a higher risk of fire jumping to a neighbouring house than to a neighbouring flat.

What about when the fire had jumped to neighbouring flats via the exterior of the building? Was it still right for residents to stay in place? The fire brigade arrived at 01:00 and "At 04:14, officials from the Metropolitan Police Service addressed the large crowd of onlookers and urgently instructed them to contact anyone they knew who was trapped in the building—if they are able to reach them via phone or social media—to tell them they must try to self-evacuate and not wait for the fire brigade.". The fire started on the second floor, 600 people were estimated to be in the building and the latest estimate is 70-150 dead. Presumably the difference is mostly made up of people who ignored fire safety advice and self-evacuated as well as some who the fire service saved. Do you think ex-ante the fire brigade were correct to wait until 04:14 before advising residents to evacuate?

No, once it is clear it was spreading from flat to flat then obviously the strategy should change.

The incompetence here is shocking. It didn't occur to anyone in charge after say, an hour of the fire spreading (they have heat detection units, so they know what's happening), that maybe they should change the plan??

Best to act as if you're on your own and act as if emergency services are morons if you're ever in trouble. The common sense to "get the **** out if you can" is way better than expert advice. A lot of it designed on the assumption that a) **** isn't going to go badly wrong b) you're best avoiding a stampede/panic/uncontrolled situations. Fine for old people maybe. If you're young and fit I think ignoring emergency services and getting out is the play. In just about any situation.

This wasn't obvious after the first, say, two hours?

This tragedy is now being used by the far left as a political easy point scorer.
In that respect, it will be talked of for generations.

The Met Police have announced that:-

a) the fire was indeed started by a faulty fridge-freezer on the fourth floor, and they've notified the manufacturer, though there have been no previous reported problems or recalls with that model;

b) both the insulation and the outer cladding used on Grenfell Tower have now failed specially ordered fire-safety tests and proved highly combustible; and

c) the police are considering manslaughter charges and are seizing documents relating to Grenfell Tower's refurbishment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584

Up in North London where I am, Camden Council has identified the same Grenfell-type American-made polyethylene outer cladding on the five towers of the Chalcots estate, fitted by the same contractor, Rydon Group (or rather Rydon's subcontractor), during a £66m refurbishment in 2006. These panels are now being stripped off. Camden say that the underlying insulation is up to spec, but the outer PE rainscreen cladding is not what was specified. This puts the council's inspection regime in question, and Camden's housing chief Patricia Callaghan told residents, per the Evening Standard: 'At the moment we don't know who signed it off. We will find out. There will be a thorough review and believe you me, whoever signed it off to say it was safe for all you residents will walk. I can assure you.'

Hmm. They still messed it up, though.

anyone survive by going to the roof?

No.

And the Standard quotes IT expert Sergej Smirnov, a Russian Latvian who's lived in London for seven years, who was in bed in a neighbouring block, woke up and smelled the fire and ran straight over to see what he could do, at a very early stage, and helped to rescue eleven people from the first three floors. (That is, below the fourth-floor flat where the fire started.) He couldn't reach the fourth floor because he was overcome by the smoke and fumes. This was when firefighters had only just arrived, but the whole building had gone up and the stairway was all but impassible. When he got out, he gave CPR to one female resident (he'd learnt the technique in his military service in Latvia), but there were football-sized chunks of burning cladding raining down and firefighters cleared the area.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londo...-a3571726.html

I visited the site today. Out of morbid curiosity, maybe; or perhaps to pay respects, whatever that means. Not many people about. I don't normally go in for signing public books of condolence and such, but it felt like the right thing to do.

"I am so sorry for your loss."

Then I burst into tears.

5 tower blocks being evacuated now as the council realise they're also wrapped in flammable material.

Hopefully a decent number of councillors / landowners / developers / other decision makers are going to prison for a long time over this.