is it just the perspective, or is the peak of the roof over the garage the highest point?

traditionally you would want the entrance to be on the primary mass.

have you seen McMansion hell? pretty funny, she sometimes get's serious and expounds on topics like this. but her trolling is great.

ugh i love that blog but just in the last couple days Zillow sent her a cease and desist because she was using photos from their site. She took down the site but should have it back soon she says. Pissed me off.

These are great. My house is definitely guilty of some of this, especially the two-story family room. I loved it when we bought it, but now I recognize it for the incredible waste of space/energy it is.

this is mostly contractor-speak for "everything isn't at a 90-degree angle". There are a few details you could clean up like the master closet, but overall there is nothing particularly offensive with the floor plan.

I think it's just perspective messing you up. The garage peaks at 14' 6", but I can't find a number for the living room. Still, I'm sure that vault is bigger than 5' above the normal ceiling level.

Still, there's a real concern here, right? The gable over the garage is definitely wider and more massive. That's an artifact of me wanting to have a higher ceiling in the garage so I could eventually build a golf simulator out there. Is the trade-off worth it? Do you see alternative possibilities?

Thank you so much for the feedback. I like the notion of an integrated main floor for entertaining and shared family space. I like the idea of my kid studying at the counter while I make dinner with someone else lounging in the living room/etc. This is actually one of my concerns about the screened in porch - it feels a little too removed from everything else, but I think my designer wants to preserve sight-lines out of the kitchen by having the screened porch off to the side. In general, he seems to privilege design aesthetics over functionally to a greater extent than I like, I think.

We were contemplating a slightly larger deck as well, though it's fairly large as is - the table is illustrated with chairs fully pulled out, which makes it seem smaller than it actually is. We're alternatively thinking of built in seating in the corner. Thoughts?

Your thoughts on the master are well taken. It was previously squared up there, and we asked for that angle so that the window on that wall would be inside the closet and not in the bedroom (it faces west). I think we would honestly prefer no window there at all, but I know that would make the exterior look bad. We might just go with that plan and plant a tree or something, idk.

We're not all that interested in resale value. We don't really think we'll move, but if we get dinged $20k on the 10% chance we ever sell the place because we put in what we liked, oh well. We don't really want a dual vanity. We've had it before and it just feels like one extra sink to clean, to be honest. As mentioned, we don't mind bumping into one another once in awhile, and we think it's good for our relationships (not that this is a tiny home, by any stretch).

The kitchen is where I'm really struggling. I really, really want a sink on the island and not on a wall (I prefer to face people and like hiding dirty dishes, etc. behind a raised counter). But I agree that taking 12 steps from the fridge to the stove is stupid. Don't know what to do about this that doesn't really blow up the plan, and it's kinda killing me.

just my opinion, but it looks a little awkward the way the master bedroom wing is set back from the central facade.

maybe you could get more room for golf simulator by expanding the master bedroom space (and basement under it) to the full depth of the main living space. then you would have one continuous mass from the front for the living space that visually outweighs the garage.

We are fairly limited in selection around here. As in, the closest actual architecht might be 100 miles away. But this designer seems to think about things like sight-lines, how light works with the space, flow, etc. etc. etc. He's the more high-end option around here, but by no means as well trained as many folks you'd find in nicer settings. Still, many of the deficiencies you and others are noting result from my wife's and mine dumb requests (that we're second-guessing), so I don't know that it's entirely fair to put too much blame at his feet.

That's intriguing, and I'd like to hear others weigh in on how the various masses balance. Others I've run this by like that the master wing is a bit set back, but I agree the garage is fairly overwhelming (verging on being a "car hole" to steal a phrase from mcmansionhell.com).

The basement has 9 foot ceilings. I thought golf simulators had to be 10 feet, at least?

Edit - maybe I should just quit golf . . .

I'm actually about to embark on a redesign. currently we have a foyer + dining room + kitchen (in a basic T layout, with the kitchen represented by the horizontal top of the T, and the foyer and dining room on opposite sides of the vertical line).

we are going to combine these 3 rooms into an open concept kitchen + living space + entryway.

our house can't really "afford" to have a formal dining room spacewise, and we'd rather have livable space near the kitchen where kids can be. and the foyer way doesn't serve a whole lot of purpose, so we're going to knock down the walls and create one big space. the new combined space will be about 500 sq feet.

so our thought is to have an island in the new space that functions as our everyday eating space. (for the occasions where we want a real dining room table, we'll keep an expandable table in the living room).

anybody have any thoughts on that? too optimistic I can find an island that can be that versatile? any examples that could work?

A well designed building is a coherent whole outside and in. It's one of the ways the McMansion style usually fails, being a random mishmash that is less than the sum of its parts. When I say haphazard space it's not about efficiency so much as there being some sort of spatial order informing the design. When I look at a floor plan I should see... something. And roof lines should make sense as appropriate geometries for covering the space below, rather than just being busy for the sake of being busy.

If 9999 reads this I'm sure he'll be happy to design you a roof.

So, in these specific plans, the only "fake" roofline is the one above the entry (which has a 9 foot ceiling), and I think that's just to provide balance with the garage. Could you talk more about how the rest of the place feels incoherent or haphazard? Because I rather like the flow and organization with the exception of a few spots, but I'm genuinely interested in good criticism.

Nothing really relates to anything else. There are no lines that carry through, there is no organizing theme to how the spaces are arranged. It's just jumbled together. This has nothing to do with "flow", and is likely the result of the designer not knowing how to do it, or even being aware that it is a thing. All of the rooms and spaces could be arranged more or less as they are now, but with more care taken so they are all singing in tune, so to speak.

Here are a couple examples from the rear elevation:

You don't say?

If only it was limited to the roof...

You've had some good, bad, and ugly feedback so far. You need to figure which is which. I'll throw some more at you and you can decide where it belongs.

I like that you want a not-too-big house. Definitely don't fall into the bigger is better trap.

You say your location is on a big acreage in the country. What does that mean from a geographic, topographic, landscape, natural features perspective? Can you post some pics? Am I correct to assume that north is to the left on the plans? Is there a view? Is there a reason the garage is cranked 45°, i.e. is there some sort of setback limitation or a natural feature that requires it to do that? Do you have a site plan you can post?

What is your budget? What does it work out to from a $/sq. ft. cost? I'm trying to get a sense of where you house falls into the general spectrum of things. It looks to me that you likely have an "average" budget. There isn't anything wrong with that, I just need to get a sense of things.

Warning: first-thoughts-architectural-stream-of-consciousness-gut-feel-in-no-particular-order-impressions coming... however, they are kinda in the order you talk about them.

You say you want good outdoor spaces, but I'm not seeing them. Both the screened porch and the deck look tacked-on and not very well considered. I think the deck should take advantage of the topography and be a terrace, which would take some redesign. In fact I think the entry and living room is in the wrong place. From right-to-left on the plan I'm thinking: garage | mudroom, powder room | entry, living | kitchen, dining | ensuite, closets, master bedroom.

I'm not liking the suburban expression of the garage that screams, "Look, I'm a three-car garage! See all my doors???!!!" You say you have a big site, why not orient two of the doors to the side? Just curve the driveway around. The single garage could be exposed and keep the sorta carriage house door/window look to it. The side of the re-oriented garage could have some windows that animate the front elevation.

The front entry is very, very tentative. I find the "porch" to be very weak as it is pretty much non-existent. If it's supposed to be a porch, make it a porch. The window at the stair seems kinda weak. When you walk into the entrance, is the ceiling flat. If so, ugh... weak. It appears the living room is vaulted. correct?

You say you feel like you asked for a cabin/lake home/vacation home and that you ended up with a fairly generic ranch. I would have to agree with that... a suburban ranch tho — not a real ranch, which would be cool.

As others have said, the kitchen functions poorly, but it can be improved by simply arranging the appliances into a functional work triangle. I find it a bit alarming that your house designer didn't know to do so.

The master bedroom is a mess. The ensuite and closets should be used as a transitional buffer between the kitchen/dining (my initial gut-feel preferred plan organization as stated about) and the actual bedroom space. This gives you more options for orienting the bed to an outdoor view or an interior feature/entertainment wall. Right now you are looking into the ensuite. Ugh. And don't even get me started on that weak-ass angled entry door and the misshapen walk-in closet. Double-ugh. By the way, is there not a bathtub in the ensuite?

zikzak knows of what he speaks.

It's one of those things; you either see it or you don't.

Lol no. Don't quit your day job.

This.



Wat?

Yes, very weak and ill-resolved.

Again, zikzak expresses the issues and challenges perfectly. There is no real concept or ordering strategy in the design; it is just a bunch of individual spaces strung together and then wrapped up in a standard suburban expression in an attempt to provide a sense of cohesion; which it may well do for some that can't see past the surface.

zikzak, I really enjoy reading your responses; methinks you must be a talented builder.


Enough of my design-trolling: the_scalp, I'll take a look at your plan over the weekend and draw something up for you to consider. Don't get too excited tho, it won't be a CAD plan. I'm not sure if your guy will have the chops—or the desire—to build upon it.

It is definitely going to help if you respond to my questions and post some site pics, as well as a site plan.

Oh, and if you have any sections—which you should—post them also. If the "designer" hasn't done any sections, well, I don't even...

Cheers.

Forget the stairs in the back yard and save a little money. Just put some rail road ties in there and make dirt/rock steps or something. If you're going in the back yard it looks like you're just going to play in the grass anyway, so I think you can handle roughing it on the way down the hill.

Is anyone really going to hang in the screened porch?

I know the room upstairs says "master", but I call the guest suite. I don't mind the angles on the garage side, but the angled walls in the MBD are cutting out too much space for the sake of the pointy area in the closet.

Wow, lots and lots of good discussion. Thanks so much to everyone, especially ninetynine99.

This is obviously more discouraging than I was hoping for, and I guess I just had a wrong read on my designer. I thought things were pretty good with a few problems.

I have been running kids around all morning. Naptime is in an hour and I'll reply in a lot more detail then. Needless to say, I am tremendously appreciative of everyone's comments. Thanks.

Yeah, I'll explain the site a bit more in the next post, but the backyard is where most of our acreage / view / recreational area / fire pit / timber is, so I anticipate a fair amount of going back there to do a lot more than play in the grass. Those won't be built-in steps, they're just illustrated as such in the plan. We were thinking about a landscaping feature going down that hill, with flag stone steps or similar. Though I'm intrigued by railroad ties.

Yes. Me. A lot. I loved screened in porches and I spend tons of time in them whenever we're somewhere that has one. I like being sorta outside, under a fan, and without worrying about bugs. I don't like being on a deck, under the sun, and constantly getting pestered.

Yeah - I think folks are getting hung up on the angled wall, which we definitely asked the builder to do against this objections, because we weren't happy with the way the bedroom was working.

Preface: I know I keep making excuses, but we are right in the middle of rural Iowa, and a search for actual architects literally meant people a ninety minute drive away, most of whom don't design many country homes. We had a horrible experience with our first designer (she honestly just put whatever we told her on paper and it was nasty, because we are not trained in this). That burned 4 months and several thousand. Then we went with this second, more expensive, more well-regarded person. This is the designer that local physicians, lawyers, bankers, etc., go to for their nicer houses.

And we had a good experience with him, mostly. He spent a lot of time at the site, he spent a lot of time talking to us and trying to get a feel for what makes us unique, he was way, way, way better than our first designer. And we liked his original drawings. But the tweaking process isn't going well, and I sort of think that he's a little confused that we didn't just build his original plans, because they were "good enough".

That's a major part of the culture around here. A bunch of practical farmers who are perfectly happy building a bigger home with bells and whistles. Trying to keep things smaller is a major pushback against what everyone else around here does. Caring about things like good architecture/nice design is definitely not on most folks' radar. Function takes precedence over form, for sure, and friends and relatives would honestly mutter some cliche stuff about "big-city ideas" if we were to openly care too much about things like flow, mass balance, etc. etc. People are fairly confused, actually, that we have been in this process for six months (with two young kids and after a move!) without having starting framing up walls yet. Obviously, we want to do this right and we want something that will function as well as possible while being beautiful. But we also feel like we don't have the local resources to do that without spending years and years at it. And I don't want to live in this dumpy apartment forever.

Anyway, I know nobody here is my therapist, I'm just trying to contextualize for you all why we've made the decisions we have up until now. I'm glad for this feedback, and am interested in anything else folks want to share.

Thanks. We lived in 2100 finished square feet in our last home and were fairly happy, though we want a few bigger things here (bigger closet, pantry, kitchen, en suite guest space, and entertaining spaces. Folks here think we're crazy for building bedrooms smaller than 14'x14'.

It's a 17-acre plot in a great location that used to consist of two hayfields, connected by a shallow draw. We have been planning on building part way down the draw facing the bigger field (which has been fallow for 6 years and is surrounded by timber).

Here's a satellite image with the approximate house site that we're planning:


I don't have great site pictures, oddly enough. But to give you a feel, here's me sitting just north of where we want to build looking down into the draw.


And here's looking back at the building site from the far side (where our view and deck look out to). Our build is planned to be just to the left of where the car is parked.

Finally, here's a decent look at the terrain and the view, but not from the build site. This pic is taken about 100 yards north of the site. The picture itself is looking southeast.


I can go out and take video or get better pictures tonight if you think it would be helpful.

I don't have a site plan beyond that, really. The garage is angled at 45 degrees because I think we wanted to have space to the side of the house for a patio / outdoor kitchen and because, according to the excavators, it would make dirt work a bit easier. But I think most options are available. In this clime, you definitely don't want openings pointed north, and even having the garage point northwest is a bit of an issue.

Well, we were hoping to stay under $600,000 all-in. That's fairly flexible, though. But land, well, and road eat up a bunch, and we want that number to include solar as well. So we were hoping for the build itself to come in at $350 or so. Our designer thinks $400. Our buddy who owns a building supply company and is gonna hook us up thinks $300, but he probably doesn't appreciate the quality of stuff we're gonna want. That's for a 2800 sq. ft. custom build with quality appliances, spray foam, an eye toward energy efficiency, etc. Building is cheap here compared to many places, but - then - it often looks cheap, I guess.

I'm really interested in your proposal. But it does seem like the primary view is definitely to the east, maybe to the southeast. We want the deck to enjoy that and be elevated. I'd love to see anything you can come up with.

Interestingly, our first designer did have the garage on the north. But, like I said, it was a nightmare design. I should post it just for laughs.

That's a good idea. The driveway has to come from the far northeast corner of the property. We don't love the 3-garage door thing either. but we think the designer ameliorated it somewhat by sort of making the inside stall to blend with the house mass a bit more (windows, separate vault for the far two stalls, etc.).

Yeah, we didn't anticipate spending a lot of time on that porch (it will look to the driveway, a garden, maybe a few fruit trees, but it's not our primary view or anything). We said that room for a couple chairs would be fine. I agree it's not grand, and we thought it might do a lot for the house's look to have a timber-frame porch. But I wonder if that would look tacked on. To be honest, we really like the look of timber-framed houses, but we understand that you're talking about double construction costs or so, is that accurate?

Yeah - I'm feeling a lot of the same. That's why I'm on here pouring my guts out when my banker called me today asking why we haven't submitted plans for assessment yet . . .

I think he does understand the concept of a work triangle. I genuinely think he hopes that we don't so that other features of the design important to him fly under the radar. My non-negotiables on the kitchen included:

1) nice appliances (including commercial or quasi-commercial stove+vent)
2) an island sink behind elevated counter
3) standing-height message desk viewable from kitchen to hold computer for family meetings, recipes, music control, streaming video, etc. etc.
4) a large pantry

Our designer, I think, started with a large window facing our front yard where there would normally be a sink and then designed everything around that. It doesn't leave room for a work triangle. We ran this by a local kitchen design center and they suggested moving the range under the window with pop-up ventilation. Ugh.

Don't really care much about a bathtub. We thought we'd save the square footage. I like the idea for your preferred orientation. My wife has suggested similar, but it's hard to see how it would work (which is why neither of us do this professionally, I guess). We don't want an entertainment wall in our bedroom for sure. Pretty much a bed and one big window facing east is our ideal.

Yeah, it's a walk-out the whole length, so I guess calling it a basement is weird.

I was hoping you'd say that zikzak was crazy and that the house just needed a few tweaks and was pretty decent. Still, I'm so grateful for the honesty. Just don't know how to proceed.

You rock. Ask any followups you need.

What's a section? I suspect you don't even. We are on draft 4 of this design which was preceded by 2 drafts of another with someone else. I think our prior designer did sections (interior 3D views)? Let me know what else I can elaborate on. Thanks.

I've found a contractor and started the process to convert my kitchen from this:





to this design my neighbor with the same floorplan did:





I went with a guy who knows the condo complex well and comes recommended by the plumbers who are always out here - and seem to do good work. I talked to another contractor who seemed intimidated by the condo rules. This guy knows the maintenance guys and seems legit. I figure he does a lot of work out here so he's got a rep to maintain.

First step is to tear out the wall and rewire the electrical to the ceiling fan and kitchen light. He quoted me $4k to do that and demo the whole kitchen to a blank slate. Seems pretty reasonable.

As far as the kitchen layout I'm going to go pretty much 100% with the basic design above. So the dishwasher and sink stay put, the fridge moves to the back wall, and the stove moves to the island. This whole complex is 100% electric, so moving the stove just means running some 220 to the island.

I plan to shop around for cabinets some this weekend. Same basic layout but white shaker with no bevel and no stupid wine rack over the fridge. I like the all-horizontal handles. The contractor said I could do custom made cabinets for about $2k more. I don't see a huge advantage in custom made. I want middle of the road cabinets.

I do plan to splurge a little on quartz countertops - probably white with black specks. And I'll pick some backsplash with a little color.

One tricky part is going to be the stove. Apparently I need to get a downdraft stove with a charcoal filter, since the vent above the current stove not reachable. Those aren't cheap.

Biggest decision is the flooring. I have 4 options:

1. tile the kitchen and greeting area like it is now with some new tile, hardwood the living room
2. hardwood the whole living room and kitchen
3. #1 but also hardwood the bedroom instead of leaving it carpeted
4. #2 but also hardwood the bedroom

I'm leaning toward #4 - just hardwood the whole damn house - simple.



Obviously it has to be something that's resistant to water in the kitchen. I'm leaning towards light or medium grey. I don't want dark brown and I sure as hell don't want brown tile with brown carpet and brown cabinets like above. I can't understand how someone who could design such a kick-ass kitchen could make such horrible color choices.

Any thoughts or advice is much appreciated. I don't plan to do anything myself except buy stuff.

I like plan 4, as I think having one kind of flooring for cleaning and maintaining is really nice. New wood floors taken care of will not present a problem in the kitchen as long as you don't routinely leave puddles of water sitting there.

I, personally, like the look of your neighbor's kitchen more than what you're describing, but I think that's completely personal preference talking. I definitely think the layout is a tremendous improvement. I think it's gonna make your place tons better and will help a lot with resale if it ever comes to that.

suzzler,

i just did a gut reno on my kitchen and did white shaker cabinets, light gray caesarstone counters, slightly darker gray floor tiles, and backsplash that is kind of blue-gray. i think it came together pretty well. will take a couple pictures later.

It can be difficult to explain what 99 and I are talking about to people who don't live and breathe this stuff every day (and to many who do as well), but I think it is the missing thing that is keeping you from being really happy with the design. Well, that and that you didn't get anything remotely cabin-ish.

A section is a drawing of what it would look like if you cut a building in half with a giant chainsaw. Hard to read if you're not familiar with them, but enormously helpful.

https://www.google.com/search?q=buil...ction&tbm=isch

suzzer, hardwood in a kitchen should be fine if you use an engineered floor. They're much more forgiving of moisture.