Gut feeling tells me this guy's a youth pastor.

So have my co-workers.

FTFY. This is OOT - land of deprecation moreso than self-deprecation. Maybe self-defecation tho.

No one wore seat belts when I was a kid. We'd hop all around the station wagons driving our parents crazy. Also rode in the back of pickup trucks.

And like chop said, I ride a motorcycle. I wear a seat belt in cars and did before it was required, but it wouldn't be *that* big a deal aside from the beeping and tickets.

In 1980 most people didn't wear seat belts and the fatality rate was roughly double what it is now per mile driven. And that's just one factor, there are air bags and better cars and brakes and tires and less drunk driving.

So, sure seat belts are definitely great, but it's not like you go from certain death to indestructible and unless you really don't care about money at all it strikes me as quite irrational to drive in a car at all, at least for things that aren't really really important and then to feel like you wouldn't do it without a seat belt for all the money in the world.

Would you take a job that paid $x/year more if the commute were twice as long?

Does the 1980 stat mean the same if the population almost doubles? 1980, 24 million people 2018 40 million people in California.

Less drunk drivers now, but more texting and distracted drivers with a lot more people on the roads going everywhere all the time.

"per mile driven."

Same. This is just an anecdote, and not a "this makes it okay" justification though, right?

I mean, my parents beat me and my brothers like crazy, and we turned out okay, but I wouldn't beat my kids for all the money in the world.

I think this depends on your driving habits. Like I said, I'd do it myself for a million, but that's because I'm a defensive driver, I've never been in a serious accident, and I think I could mitigate the risk enough that it would be quite low.

Alternatively, my aunt gets into an accident almost once a year, some of them semi-major. Several, if not most of them, have been her fault. It would obviously be a big deal for her, if she had to keep driving (keeping in the spirit of the question, not angling for a driver/limo/helicopter/whatevs everywhere).

I wouldn't choose it for my kids for any amount of money (non-angling) if she were their driver. And for teenagers driving other teenagers, that's probably relatively high risk as well, in terms of driving.

Micro and others with kids, how much would it take for you to choose no seatbelts ever for your kids, assuming regular driving habits, no angling, with them driving themselves and riding in the cars of other teenagers?

I really wish this workplace nutbag had ground up half a sub so I could call him the Grinder Grinder.

"Makes it ok" is complicated. It was ok then and it's not now. I don't think my parents were horrible parents to let us do that. My mom also smoked in the car with us locked in it and while she was pregnant for that matter. Now she doesn't smoke around my kids. I wish I got that treatment. I hated it.

Obviously I'd take much less to not wear seat belts myself than for my kids. I'm not going to bother trying to put a dollar amount on it. A lot of that amounts to "how rich/poor are you?"

I'm also a pretty cautious driver and have never been in a serious accident.

I guess. I think it was only "okay" then due to ignorance though. Like, if you gave our parents' generation all the current info from today, and they still did things like that, it wouldn't actually be okay. i.e It was only considered okay then due to the era, but was not actually something okay to do even then, they just didn't know or didn't care anyway.

Maybe I overestimate the risks of teenage driving due to anecdotal experience, but it seems like not a small risk, compared to my own driving, hence my position. Plus if something serious did happen (which would not be a small risk), I don't know if I could live with myself for choosing that.

I took my afternoon walk to Dunkin yesterday, which was super crowded because of the Patriots Parade.

Ahead of me was a guy who ordered 3 orders of bacon on an English muffin, and kept stressing nothing else; no butter, no egg etc. He got his sandwich while I was waiting for my coffee, and then I heard “Do you have Jelly? I need 2.”

May I present to you, a triple bacon sandwich w double jelly. Obviously I snagged a picture.






The MLYLT twist!

An interesting question and well beyond the scope of the OOT LC thread, but they did have that information pretty much and I'm sure there are things right now that will seem unacceptable in 30 years for which we also already have the information. Or things may go a different direction in the next 30 years, but this is more about social norms than risk analysis.

Kind of a weird story.

My Dad's friend recently got diagnosed with Stagec3 brain cancer has been going through treatments yada yada yada. Well, he had about 9 monthes left on his car lease. He asked to return the car because he can't drive anymore. They told him that's fine but he would get a bill for the remaining months and a "disposition fee". He said said screw it, and returned the car. Well, the car company actually sent him a check for the last month that he didn't drive the car.

Thought that was kind of cool.

No amount. My daughters are 16 and 19 and, although they both drive reasonably well, they do not anticipate or otherwise recognize dangerous situations all that well, and have little/no experience driving in snow and ice.

We used to own a Volkswagen bug and I was permitted to ride in the space behind the rear seats. Hard to imagine that now, but it was entirely normal back then. This would have been between 1967 and 1973.

I was belted once by my father and spanked several times, all deserved. I’ve spanked one of my daughters once and the other one never, although Mrs. T spanked the second daughter once. Both daughters agree that the spankings were justified and have no quarrel that they occurred. Spankings IMO can be and are fine, but should not be done out of anger or frustration, but rather as a method of emphasizing that immediate compliance with certain instructions is necessary. With daughter number one, I spanked her after she bit me for the third time and where she had been warned after the second that a third was going to get a spanking. It was clear that she did not believe me, to her woe. Biting immediately and permanently stopped. With daughter number two, she released the restraint holding down her car seat for the third or fourth time.

But how many spankings have they received when you or the Mrs. weren't around? (Asking for Yakmelk.)

Beating your children in anger or really hurting them physically or emotionally and stuff is obviously horrible, but my number one take away from parenting is that all children are different and require unique parenting. For some kids a spanking may be right and for other kids either unnecessary or counterproductive. I will give usually well-meaning parent who is doing what they think best the benefit of doubt. I also understand that parents aren't perfect and perhaps it's not even a good model to pretend you are. I'm generally very easy going and don't have much conflict with my kids and yell at them and stuff, but if I do and regret it, I just say so and say I'm human and get to have emotions too.

Follow-through on threats is very important. I don't think it's like, if you don't your kids are going to grow up bad, but if you don't they won't listen to you and if you're little kids aren't listening to you, daily life is going to be a big struggle.

My kids are also 16 and 19 and neither of them drive. I won't be surprised if the older one never does. The younger one wants to, and is planning a big road trip after HS, and I'm happy to teach them, but they gotta take some initiative and haven't so far.

(I was never spanked. I don't think my Dad ever hit me - not that I remember anyway. My mom would sometimes hit us when she was mad, but nothing that caused any injuries, just a slap or something. That sounds terrible now, but I don't think it was thought of as a big deal back then.)

Sweet corporal punishment derail incoming!

https://countycomm.com/products/wind...er-rescue-tool

Ordered one of these to clip on to the visor.

Yeah, that's what I meant, I think you're using "okay" in terms of social norms, and I'm using "okay" in terms of risk and harm. It's fine, I think we understand each other.

Looks like we're on the same page, for similar overall reasons, even if the specifics differ.

Yeah, you know I have a lot to say about Howard's post on corporal punishment. So let me just get straight into it. I feel so strongly about this matter that if I ever saw a parent using corporal punishment on a child, I would whistle for a cab and when it came near, the license plate said 'Fresh' and it had dice in the mirror. If anything I could say that this cab was rare, but I thought "Nah, forget it, yo holmes, to Bel-Air!" I pulled up to a house about seven or eight, and I yelled to the cabbie "Yo holmes, smell ya later." Looked at my kingdom, I was finally there, to sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel-Air.

I took a lot of whoopings as a kid. I was a little bastard though. Sure, I wish my folks could have figured out another way but i emerged relativly unscathed and don't think they did anything 'wrong'.

Interestingly enough, I raised two children and never laid a hand on them.

A lot of your mothers have laid a hand on me too.

The small town I spend the summer in fishing has a cool seatbelt rule. $15 ticket and all the money goes to buying car seats for parents that can't afford them.

LOL. So long as they’re consensual, it’s none of my business.