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Old 03-16-2012, 10:25 PM   #1
entertainme
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E-cig Thread: Alternative to Smoking

Quote:
Originally Posted by ooties View Post
Wait, let me get this straight - For some reason I always thought once I just get the kit, I won't have to do anything else except buy juice every once in a while?

Lol, I'm super wrong aren't I? Do I have to sort of have to replace the whole 'e-cig' every once in a while even after I've bought a starter kit? lol :| Argh so confusing.
E-Cigarette:

Here's another brand of the Lavatube, the Apollo VTube, with a one year warranty for $60. Buy the kit. It comes with the tube, a replaceable battery, a charger, an atomizer, and a drip tip.

The "regular" is 5" long and takes an 18650 size, 1600 mA battery.

The "mini" is 3.75" long, takes an 18350, 700-850 mA Battery.

Which ever you choose, I'd buy at least one extra battery.

JUICE:

House Blend by Copper Creek was voted the #1 juice on ECF, the electronic cigarette forum last year. I'd recommend buying at least 30ml of 18mg strength, at their standard mix of 40pg/60vg.

AVE Juice (Alien Visions) is also very popular, especially their Boba's Bounty. (I'm not really a fan, because I don't care for tobacco vapes.) They're also having a 20% off sale until Sunday.

I would plan on trying something from each of the major categories of juices, tobacco, fruit, bakery. Everyone thinks they want tobacco flavor, but many find their favorite is something completely different. Keep in mind, it might take time to find your perfect juice. Most places sell sampler packs.

Hold / Ignite the Juice aka (Cartomizers, Clearomizers, Atomizers, Tanks)


There are different ways to ignite and smoke the juice. Many of us have different preferences, so we don't know what you will choose as your best experience. Here is an ecig glossary that should give you definitions of some of the terms used in this thread.

Direct Dripping: You screw an atomizer onto your ecigarette, drip juice into it, put a drip tip on the atomizer, and smoke. Many say it's the best flavor. I only drip when I'm testing flavors. You have to add juice frequently, so you can't drip and drive.

Your kit comes with one atomizer. You can buy more when you get juice at Copper Creek. From what I've read here, many like the 306.

ATOMIZER - 306LR 1.8OHM Caution. This is a low ohm device, so you need to have your lavatube set to 3.x when you use it or it will draw too much power and automatically reset the voltage lower anyway. (It's a safety feature.) Note also, that the 306 is a different size drip tip than the 510.

They also carry standard resistance atomizers: ATOMIZER - 510 3.5OHM

Here are their drip tips.

Filler Cartomizer: A cartomizer has both an atomizer, and a place to hold the juice - aka a cartridge. This type of cartomizer has filling in it to absorb the juice.

Copper Creek also has the Boge 510 cartomizers in stock. There's an endcap on the non screw end that is plastic. Take a paper clip, pull it out and put your drip tip into the cartomizer. Watch this to see how to put juice in your cartomizer.

Clearomizer: This is an atomizer and a place to hold the juice, but there is no filler inside. It's the newest of the three methods and the one I prefer. New types of clearomizers are coming out all the time. The first ones had to be filed with a syringe. Many of the newer types you can drip the juice inside directly, (neither of the items below require a syringe.)

This is the easiest one I've found out of the box and the most durable. It's called the Stardust here, but is sold under other names elsewhere. In order to attach it to your battery, you will also need to order this adapter, a 510 to Ego.

You could also try the Vision Extreme. They come from .9ml to 3.5ml size, (how much juice they hold.) You wouldn't need an adapter for these and they have their own drip tip built in.

Here is the 1.5ml.
Here is the 2.5ml.

Gotvapes Flux juice is fairly cheap. I assume made in China. I know their caramel apple is getting really good reviews, $13.95 for 36ml. I have some on the way to me, but haven't tried it yet.

Here are their 510 drip tips.

Sign up for their newsletter for a automatic 5% discount.

Summary:

- Apollo for VTube (Lavatube) kit + an extra battery

- Copper Creek for House Blend, 510 and 306 atomizers, Boge cartomizers. Sample other juices if you like. Drip tips also available.

- Gotvapes for clearomizers: Stardust + adapter and/or Vision Extreme. Drip tips and juice also available.

- AVE or Alien Visions: Popular juice supplier with 20% off sale.
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:44 PM   #2
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Once you get started your expenses are:

Juice: You can buy cheap juice or expensive, or cut costs a lot by making your own aka DIY. It's not something you want to start doing right away. Find out what you like first and read a lot.

Atomizer, Cartomizer, or Clearomizer: Depending on what you buy, how you use it, and how much maintenance you want to do, these can last from a few days to months each.

I've been using the same two Stardusts for the last couple of weeks. In general, dark or sweet juices tend to junk these up more quickly and require more maintenance.

Batteries: The lithium batteries for your Lavatube should last at least 6 months. I would buy AW IMR 18650, 1600 mAH replacements from SuperT. Right now they're $9.44 each. AW batteries are generally regarded as the best.

I'd also recommend reading this at ECF about battery and charging safety. No need to freak out, but learn about the issues with lithium batteries and how to handle them properly.

The Lavatube has built in protections, but it pays to be informed. Mine just discharged a battery to 3.2 without warning me. I will have to keep a closer eye on it. Lithiums don't like deep discharges. I'd rather get it in a charger at 3.5V.
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:55 PM   #3
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Awesome posts for helping out beginners
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:06 AM   #4
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Thanks Newff. A couple more comments.

There are a ton of sales because of St. Patrick's Day. It pays to subscribe to the Deals and Steals thread on ECF. That link is to the last two pages.

There is also a thread that consolidates discount codes, the first post is kept updated, Coupon Code Master List.

Suppliers have to be approved before they can be linked to on ECF, though I'm not sure what their approval process entails.

Finally, a mention of Discount Vapers. He's had some issues with his payment processor, (see payment note at the top of the page), but if he has something in stock, you can usually save money buying it there.

Vision Ce4 Clearomizer, (Stardust): $4.99
510 to Ego Adapter: $3.89
Boge 510 Cartomizer, 3 Ohm, Black: $4.99

It's a one man operation, but he provides good service.
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:08 AM   #5
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Just ordered some Cisco atomizers, looking forward to trying these on my new GLV-2 Super Mini when it arrives. They were sold out of the 1.5 ohm LR 306's so I had to go with 1.8 ohm. I also picked up some 1.5 Ohm LR 501's. Bought some nice drip tips for both.
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:20 AM   #6
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Quote:
Originally Posted by entertainme View Post
Once you get started your expenses are:
Man, best 2 posts ever.

Thanks man, you've saved me!

I'm going to grab either the large or the mini pending your reply!

I just have a question, is the mini 'worse' performance since the battery is smaller? Or does the battery just last a shorter amount of time with the same performance?

I'd definitely prefer the mini since it is smaller, and size is somewhat an issue since I'll be carrying it around alot.

And last but not least, how long will the 'mini' last for?
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:36 AM   #7
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

one of the best things about the lavatube is that it is voltage regulated (it kinda has to be to allow variable voltage in 0.1v increments) - so the only performance difference between normal and mini is the battery won't last so long. Thge mAh rating of a battery gives an indication how long it will last.

on some other ecigs, the performance can drop off in a curve as the battery discharges - not on a lavatube / provari.

a single 18350 battery in a mini could well last for most of a day for a fairly light user, I had a old device using a 900mAh 18350 and it was good for ~6 hours with my fairly heavy use. You will def want to own spares, but can get away with not taking one with you for a trip to the pub if you put in one fresh off the charger before going out.

It sorta depends what voltage you drive what carts/attys at - I can't remember exactly how much but obv using it at max 6.0v it won't last near as long as running at only 3.0v
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Old 03-17-2012, 04:59 AM   #8
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

I just bought a "normal" e-cig starter kit (from e-lites), while I figure out what the hell to buy to get kitted out properly. Awesome few posts up there ^ btw, get them added to that other excellent summary I read before, and stick them in the first post itt.

The kit (2 batteries/tips, charger and "approx 200" cigs) was less than the cost of 200 analogs, so I wont be out financially even if I don't buy refills for it. It's the E-Pro 4 kit, so the pack charges the e-cigs inside, and then you charge the pack when empty.

First impressions:

Gorgeous packaging (shallow I know, but it's always nice).
The e-cig itself feels like a quality piece of kit, not like a couple of supermarket jobbies I've seen other people with.
I kind of want to "smoke" more than normal, partly because I've got a new toy and want to play with it, partly because it isn't quite the same level of satisfaction.

I will update when I've got more experience of it.

Last edited by villagio; 03-17-2012 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:08 AM   #9
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Heads up for Canadian vapers: I just got an email from happy vaper and it seems they have a 2 battery lavatube kit for $80, and I think free shipping. Good news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
the only performance difference between normal and mini is the battery won't last so long. Thge mAh rating of a battery gives an indication how long it will last.
Also, the usable lifespan of mini batts will be less as they'll go through more charge/discharge cycles over the life of the battery, so instead of lasting 4 months, they might need replacing in 3.
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:13 PM   #10
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

i just want to say I'm really proud of you guys. I hope all of you spread the word and try to get as many people to switch over

cigarettes are poison. I am curious how much danger to your health still exists using ecigs. is there still a point to go completely cold turkey?? i fear with ecigs now you'll never quit cold turkey!!
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:03 PM   #11
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

I'm sold, I'm definitely going to get the mini - I'm not *too* heavy a smoker anyway, so I should be okay with the battery lasting less with the benefit of the e-cig being smaller.

I'm going to place a rather larger order soon (I'm going to get the same for my other friend who wants to quit with me too) - Does anyone know a couponcode I could use for apolloecigs.com site? I tried google, and they had 10% off coupons but none of them work/all seem to be expired!

Now - My understanding is the clearomizer, atomizer, and cartomizers are all essentially the same thing sort of? - Ie. you only need one of them to put into the 'e-cig' ie the mini lavatube, and then you're good to go? - Except each of them might give different kinds of vapes?

Which one is the 'easiest' to operate? Ie. all you have to do is fill/drip in the juice and you're good to go? Or are they all the same amount of work essentially?

Last but not least, I'm from Australia - I'm still ordering from the apolloecigs site for the starter kits as the $AUD is strong to the $USD atm anyway, but should I put in the order including more atomizers/clearomizers or such so I don't have to do it again? (Shipping seems to cost decent).

So the mini lavatube/apollo tube that I'm getting is classified as a '510' type e-cigarette? Lol.

Thanks once again everyone especially 'entertainme' ! - I'll definitely be helping all my smoker friends once I get started!!!!!
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:21 PM   #12
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Good call on the GLV.

I might be wrong but I've got a vague idea there are restrictions on the amount of juice you can buy in Oz.

Would be worth finding some Australian sellers as well. It's a PITA waiting for kit coming from overseas. I'm waiting on some juice from Rawr winging it's way to the UK at the moment.

Oh, and thanks to whoever first mentioned Rawr on here. Amazing juice.
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:45 PM   #13
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

The guy who owns the website where I get my juice delivers it to my house (we live in same town) So many flavors too. He sells only the flavors for DIY juice making on his site but he mixes 30ml bottles for me. I may start making my own though.

The only flavor I like enough to stick to is Menthol or Spearmint. I can manage other stuff for a few days or weeks if I were to run out but those are my goto forsure.
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:54 PM   #14
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Ooties, you seem to have a good handle on it now.

The atomizer will be the easiest to use at first. Basically it's just "Drip, vape for a bit til it tastes dry... drip, vape til it tastes dry... ". The cartomizer will need some youtubing and watching videos to find a good way to fill, and the CE2 will need a small needle/syringe to fill. Most places that sell CE2s will sell fill syringes.
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Old 03-17-2012, 07:50 PM   #15
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Quote:
Originally Posted by runout_mick View Post
Entertainme, do you feel like building a new e-cig thread with an OP that accurately describes the tech for newbies? We could get this one shut down and use the new one. It would be nice to have a less misleading thread title, call it "E-cig Thread 2012: Alternative to Smoking" or something similar.

Edit: Should probably get mod approval beforehand. Not sure who best to ask.
I reported my post and asked the mods to start a new thread with everything after it copied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ooties View Post
I'm going to place a rather larger order soon (I'm going to get the same for my other friend who wants to quit with me too) - Does anyone know a couponcode I could use for apolloecigs.com site? I tried google, and they had 10% off coupons but none of them work/all seem to be expired!
I'm wary of using codes from sites I'm not familiar with, especially if you have to "click through" to apollo. A number of people have reported problems with credit card theft when buying ecigs, (none for the specific vendors I've recommended). I don't have any evidence that using these adds to the risk, but it seems to me a perfect venue. For that reason I stick to ECF codes or something I can enter without a click through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ooties View Post
Now - My understanding is the clearomizer, atomizer, and cartomizers are all essentially the same thing sort of? - Ie. you only need one of them to put into the 'e-cig' ie the mini lavatube, and then you're good to go? - Except each of them might give different kinds of vapes?

Which one is the 'easiest' to operate? Ie. all you have to do is fill/drip in the juice and you're good to go? Or are they all the same amount of work essentially?
Quote:
Originally Posted by runout_mick View Post
Ooties, you seem to have a good handle on it now.

The atomizer will be the easiest to use at first. Basically it's just "Drip, vape for a bit til it tastes dry... drip, vape til it tastes dry... ". The cartomizer will need some youtubing and watching videos to find a good way to fill, and the CE2 will need a small needle/syringe to fill. Most places that sell CE2s will sell fill syringes.
The two Clearomizers I recommended do not require a syringe. They're both drip fill from a bottle and vape. For that reason, I'd recommend them for a beginner, especially the Stardust, (don't forget the adapter!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ooties View Post
Last but not least, I'm from Australia - I'm still ordering from the apolloecigs site for the starter kits as the $AUD is strong to the $USD atm anyway, but should I put in the order including more atomizers/clearomizers or such so I don't have to do it again? (Shipping seems to cost decent).
I can't vouch for anything Apollo carries except the VTube. You might want to increase your orders to Copper Creek or GotVapes. It's hard to do until you really know what you like though. I have a bunch of stuff that I'll be selling or passing on that we won't use.

Also, the ECF forum has a subforum for Australia / New Zealand. It would be worth checking there to see where others are ordering supplies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ooties View Post
So the mini lavatube/apollo tube that I'm getting is classified as a '510' type e-cigarette? Lol.

Thanks once again everyone especially 'entertainme' ! - I'll definitely be helping all my smoker friends once I get started!!!!!
Yes. 510 is the type of thread the VTube/Lavatube has. You need to know this, so you know what will fit on your thread without an adapter. Next to the Ego, it's probably the most popular. (The Ego is also 510, but it has outside threads too for cones to be added, which is why you need an adapter for the Stardust.)

You're welcome! I hope you enjoy vaping!
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:47 PM   #16
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Holy ****, It's gonna take about 2 months maybe to get my GLV Super Mini. I'm on build list 7 and I think it takes roughly a week for each list. At least I should have some good atomizers soon for my prodigy..was looking for ward to the mini though
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:30 PM   #17
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 (Premieres Sunday 10/16 at 9PM ET on AMC)

is there anyplace to read the comic books online? i need to see more of that girl with the zombies chained to her
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:07 AM   #18
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Quote:
Originally Posted by villagio View Post
I just bought a "normal" e-cig starter kit (from e-lites), while I figure out what the hell to buy to get kitted out properly. Awesome few posts up there ^ btw, get them added to that other excellent summary I read before, and stick them in the first post itt.

The kit (2 batteries/tips, charger and "approx 200" cigs) was less than the cost of 200 analogs, so I wont be out financially even if I don't buy refills for it. It's the E-Pro 4 kit, so the pack charges the e-cigs inside, and then you charge the pack when empty.

First impressions:

Gorgeous packaging (shallow I know, but it's always nice).
The e-cig itself feels like a quality piece of kit, not like a couple of supermarket jobbies I've seen other people with.
I kind of want to "smoke" more than normal, partly because I've got a new toy and want to play with it, partly because it isn't quite the same level of satisfaction.

I will update when I've got more experience of it.


Quick update.

Firstly, lol at their claim of 40 cigs per cartridge. My first one lasted 1.5 days (I'd smoke ~15 analogs max in that time). I got really bad cravings when it started running out but managed to resist (the gf still smokes so it would be easy to have one). 2 days and counting of being cigarette free (lol).

Therefore, the cost of using these is not that much less than smoking.

Practicality wise they're fantastic though. A battery lasts me all day with charge to spare, and the pack has two batteries plus the charge in the pack itself. I can't see how most people would run out of power in a day. Also, they're really easy to use.

I've just ordered some juice from liberty flights and I'm going to try and refill the cartos. Looks easy enough and it will be 10x cheaper. After that, the next step is a lavatube I think.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:27 AM   #19
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Yeah, I looked at the site that you linked to and it seems to be one of the ripoff sites. Good plan to refill the cartos. I wish these sites would just be honest about their products capabilities. One carto equaling 40 cigarettes is terrible false advertising, 10 is probably in the ballpark.
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:54 PM   #20
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Re: E-cig Thread 2012: Alternative to Smoking

Bump! Nice, new thread
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:09 PM   #21
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Re: E-cig Thread 2012: Alternative to Smoking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newff View Post
The guy who owns the website where I get my juice delivers it to my house (we live in same town) So many flavors too. He sells only the flavors for DIY juice making on his site but he mixes 30ml bottles for me. I may start making my own though.
Delivered, made to order DIY? Nice perk.

Probably 80% of what I've been vaping is DIY Cinnamon Roll and Sweet Lemonade. I'm still tweaking the Cinnamon recipe until I love it, but it's better than 90% of what I've bought for pre-mixed juice.

The Sweet Lemonade recipe a guy gave me at a meet up. You can vape it almost right after mixing, tastes great, and a really nice change of pace from my usual sweet flavors. (Citrus sweet versus bakery sweet.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newff View Post
Holy ****, It's gonna take about 2 months maybe to get my GLV Super Mini. I'm on build list 7 and I think it takes roughly a week for each list. At least I should have some good atomizers soon for my prodigy..was looking for ward to the mini though
I'd heard that wait times were really long, but didn't know they were still over a month. Yikes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJo336 View Post
Bump! Nice, new thread
Thank you, Dids!

Last edited by entertainme; 03-19-2012 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:18 PM   #22
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Quote:
Originally Posted by runout_mick View Post
One carto equaling 40 cigarettes is terrible false advertising, 10 is probably in the ballpark.
10 is what i read several places when i started vaping, but i would put a standard boge carto at closer to 5-6 cigs worth max.
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:17 PM   #23
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Re: The e-cig: Healthy cigarette alternative

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicGreen View Post
i just want to say I'm really proud of you guys. I hope all of you spread the word and try to get as many people to switch over

cigarettes are poison. I am curious how much danger to your health still exists using ecigs. is there still a point to go completely cold turkey?? i fear with ecigs now you'll never quit cold turkey!!
This is the bottom line for me:

Quote:
List of Identified, Known Carcinogens in Electronic Cigarettes vs. Conventional Cigarettes, and Which Anti-Smoking Groups are Telling Smokers to Smoke
Based on the best available scientific evidence, I have compiled a list of the identified, known carcinogens present at greater than trace quantities in electronic cigarettes compared to conventional cigarettes.

Below that list is a table listing a number of anti-smoking organizations and which of the two products they have stated or implied they would prefer that smokers smoke.

Table 1. List of Identified, Known Carcinogens in Electronic Cigarettes, Present at More than Trace Levels (defined as 1 nanogram per cigarette)

None


Table 2. List of Identified, Known Carcinogens in Tobacco Cigarettes, Present at More than Trace Levels (defined as 1 nanogram per cigarette)

Benz(a)anthracene
Benzo(b)fluoranthene
Benzo(j)fluoranthene
Benzo(k)fluoranthene
Benzo(a)pyrene
Dibenz(a,h)anthracene
Dibenzo(a,l)pyrene
Dibenzo(a,e)pyrene
Indeno(1,2,3-cd)pyrene
Quinolineb
Dibenz(a,j)acridine
Benzo(b)furan
Furan
N-Nitrosodimethylamine
N -Nitrosoethylmethylamine
N -Nitrosodiethylamine
N -Nitroso-di-n-butylamine
N -Nitrosopyrrolidine
N -Nitrosopiperidine
N -Nitrosodiethanolamine
N -Nitrosonornicotine
4-(Methylnitrosamino)-1-(3-pyridyl)-1-butanone
2-Toluidine
2,6-Dimethylaniline
2-Naphthylamine
4-Aminobiphenyl
AaC
PhIP
Formaldehyde
Acetaldehyde
1,3-Butadiene
Isoprene
Benzene
Styrene
Acetamide
Acrylamide
Acrylonitrile
Vinyl chloride
DDT
DDE
Catechol
Caffeic acid
1,1-Dimethylhydrazine
2-Nitropropane
Nitrobenzene
Ethyl carbamate
Ethylene oxide
Propylene oxide
Methyleugenol
Hydrazine
Arsenic
Nickel
Chromium
Cadmium
Lead
Polonium-210
Some people choose ecigs as a way to quit completely, and successfully do so. I personally have no interest in quitting nicotine, which does not cause cancer, and in fact is found naturally in foods we eat all the time.



While it is addictive, in vaping it's not pumped up with other chemicals, like ammonia, to make it highly addictive as big tobacco has done to cigarettes.

How can nicotine be good for me?


Quote:
Over the past decade, new research has taught us more about how nicotine affects the brain and the body. Some of it is good news -- for example, a lower incidence of Alzheimer's disease in smokers.
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A 1982 study revealed that patients with ulcerative colitis had fewer flare-ups when taking nicotine. However, side effects proved nicotine to be a poor long-term treatment.
In 2000, a study performed at Stanford revealed surprising results about nicotine's effects on blood vessels. Contrary to popular opinion, the study showed that nicotine actually boosts the growth of new blood vessels. The discovery may lead to new treatments for diabetes.
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In 2006, Duke scientists found that people with depression who were treated with nicotine patches reported a decrease in their depressive feelings. The results were perhaps not surprising for a drug associated with imparting a "buzz." However, the research also showed a direct link between nicotine and an increase in the release of dopamine and serotonin, two vital neurotransmitters. A lack of dopamine or serotonin is a common cause of depression.
The real question to me, is why are anti-smoking activists lying to the public about harm reduction, and smoking alternatives?
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:35 PM   #24
Royston Vasey
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Re: E-cig Thread 2012: Alternative to Smoking

Jesus that list of cancer causing ingredients is insane, I must say I was clueless when I smoked analogues.

The UK government actually put out a press release advocating e-cigs not that long ago but other countries have some retarded ideas, no doubt being pressurised by the tobacco companies and loss of tax monies being a factor.
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:06 PM   #25
clyro
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Re: E-cig Thread 2012: Alternative to Smoking

in for new thread



I ordered a few Kanger eGo Cartomizers ealier today cause they are reduced to £1.39 from £2.99 on Liberty Flights.

I have a Riva 510 but from looking at the picture (and rereading the description) I don't think they are compatible with it..... description says;

"Suitable for 510 threaded devices with a crown (i.e. eGo and Riva due to the raised atomizer connection)."

I just saw Riva and 510 and ordered.

Guess I need to cancel yeah?


http://www.liberty-flights.co.uk/product.asp?id=149
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