dont understand how Kylo picked Rey up and smashed her against a tree via force. that seemed like Maul/Vader level stuff that Kylo would be too inexperience to execute. maybe I'm underestimating him on account of how he lost a lightsaber fight to an untrained girl.
Saw it the other night. Thought it was pretty darn good and I'm as big a fanboy of the original three movies as anyone. Long post here and I'll get to a little bit about the story later but I think one thing that's important to remember when you watch Star Wars movies that there's a big difference between science fiction and science fantasy. See in science fiction you can consider the plausibility of, say, how a space capsule would have to orient to get through our atmosphere, or the time-shift on a planet that's very close to a black hole, but in science fantasy the fact that the bad guys have a weapon that can suck up a sun's energy and fire it at a planet light years away is just something you should accept, because if you're going to question stuff like that you may as well start at some basic stuff like if they're in outer space why is there even gravity on the ships, how can we hear the engines, or why are laser swords even a thing when projectile weapons would be far superior in a tactical environment? For sure details like that are important in movies like Interstellar, Gravity, or the Martian, but for Star Wars they're just not, and if you dwell on them you're kind of missing the point. It's like questioning how come Superman has heat vision or something. I mean, who cares?
Okay as for the prequels which have also been brought up in the thread, I think everyone who watches a Star Wars movie now or in the future should just pretend that they never happened. Radical for some fanboys I know, but the original three movies are some of the best movies in history, and then the prequels are collectively the biggest pile of sh*t that has ever been produced by actual humans (I mean, mitochlorians? Seriously? Way to ruin almost everything in the series, George). I think there's every possibility that this is what's going to happen with the series going forward, actually. I mean, no one is ever going to come out and say that they're ignoring them, but don't be surprised if contradictions creep in to future movies on the details that took place before EpIV, because I, II, and III were just that horrible and Disney really doesn't want them to even exist. I know I don't.
The whole series is a bit of a mystery, frankly. I think there's a serious possibility that Lucas is mostly a hack who got very, very lucky and that Star Wars was going to be a total disaster until it was rescued from its fate by great sound, some amazing editing, and then the visual effects. Heck, even the original story crawl that was supposed to appear at the beginning of IV was apparently so convoluted and confusing that no one could understand it, so it was finally rewritten by Lucas's friend Brian DePalma, and that was literally the very first thing the Star Wars audience would see so you'd think that he'd get it right, but he didn't. But then with SW being such a massive, massive hit and a worldwide sensation it was decided by Fox to bring in some pros for the next one (namely writer Lawrence Kasdan and director Irvin Kirshner) and they delivered big time, which is why ESB is considered easily the best of all the movies.
Once you fast forward to the prequels though, Lucas lack of skill is totally exposed (or if you need further proof, try watching Red Tails). I think it's possible that he was a good film maker in his youth who just got lazy in the 90s -- all three prequel movies were shot entirely in green screen, which meant the production staff never had to leave the studio, and that's a pretty far cry from the extensive locations and traveling they had to do in the original series. Or in the alternative, that he has his brilliant moments when it comes to original ideas but that he needs to be heavily supported by pros in the directing and especially in the screenwriting or you end up with scenes and dialog like this:
Anyways as for Episode VII I do agree that it's a little disappointing that they couldn't have had more original ideas than they did, but for anyone including myself who feels that way you need to understand that just wasn't going to happen. Disney paid $4 BILLION for this franchise and there was literally no way a company that size was going to gamble on that kind of investment. The script was always going to be nice and safe so that while critics might not come out and say it was brilliant, none of them would come out and say it's a piece of crap like they did for the last three movies. They needed to right the ship, and they did. It's probably the reason why they went with J.J. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan as the director and writer as opposed to getting a little risky and going with say, Timothy Zhane to do the screenplay (who wrote three bestselling Star Wars books in the 90s) and maybe David Fincher to direct. No, because while both are brilliant, they are also edgy, and you don't take risky chances with $4 Billion, ever.
Kylo Ren and the mask is a perfect example. Sure you can argue about the 'unmasking' scene and whether it belonged where it did or whatever, but to me I kind of wonder why he even wore a mask in the first place? I mean, it serves no functional purpose other than to clearly identify him to us that he's the villain of the movie and supposedly the next Darth Vader, but you have to wonder, do they really think that us moviegoers are that dumb that we need that spelled out for us? Couldn't the villain of the movie just not wear a mask and make us hate him by the things he says and does? I mean, Joffrey from Game of Thrones didn't need a mask and we hated him in the first five minutes of his screen time. But in order to do that you have to have faith in your actor, your writer, your director, and even your audience, and doing that requires trust, and that requires risk and we're right back to the $4 Billion. So yeah, not going to happen.
The whole Death Star plot is another example. If they wanted an original idea that didn't take the concept of IV and VI there are countless Star Wars books out there that all have original ideas and use the same characters, and you could pick up just about any one them and make a good movie (and you might even see this in a subsequent movie) but you could never make THIS movie. Again, the best movie of the series is ESB and it doesn't have a complex plot involving a Death Star and fighter battles, its story is the simplest of the three -- Vader wants to get Luke before he becomes a Jedi, aaand that's pretty much it -- but it worked great. But for this movie, sorry it was not going to have that, because $4 Billion. This one was going to have the biggest most visual Death Star battle of them all and who cares if it makes sense or not.
Okay so anyways with that understood the movie is still great. The visual effects are some of the best that have ever been put on film and the story line is fine with the understanding that they were going to play things pretty safe and let Abrams and the actors and the visual effects people do their thing. Could it have been better? Sure. But within the limitations of what it took to get it made, it's about as good as it was ever going to be.
A couple points for the plot holes crowd:
1. How was Rey able to use the Force like that?
Two possibilities here, one is that she's just that special. The second and more likely I think is that she discovered her abilities because Luke was reaching out through space to guide her. I think this will be explained in the very first scene of EpVIII.
2. How was Finn able to fight Ren and not get wasted?
First of all he wasn't. He pretty much got beat. Second Ren was both wounded and in a pretty emotional state. The point of the scene was just to set up the battle with Rey and it worked for that.
3. How did the lightsaber get in Maz Kanata's hands?
I think we'll see a Bespin connection in the future, and maybe a return appearance by Billy Dee Williams for that. Or not.
You say they wanted to be safe, but imo making another planet killing gun isn't safe, it's on the absurd.
JJ Abrams with a sci-fi reboot involving super badass planet destroying machines??? I know I wasn't the only person watching that was thinking about Star TREK when the new Death Star was unveiled.
There is nothing safe in creating a plot that people will mock and belittle.
even the most positive reviews I have read of phantom menace admit that it's kinda ****ty. but in 99 when CGI was new, it was a really innovative way to shoot a movie. That was about all the positive that could be said for it, even back then when it was like PEAK CGI fascination.
more importantly though, actual life long star wars fans are gushing over this movie. phantom menace was liked by ??? little kids and people who are distracted by bright objects.
I will throw out a disclaimer and say this movie will age horribly (a la Lost) if the sequels don't deliver well on a lot of the questions it raises or fails to develop the characters in a meaningful way.
even the most positive reviews I have read of phantom menace admit that it's kinda ****ty. but in 99 when CGI was new, it was a really innovative way to shoot a movie. That was about all the positive that could be said for it, even back then when it was like PEAK CGI fascination.
more importantly though, actual life long star wars fans are gushing over this movie. phantom menace was liked by ??? little kids and people who are distracted by bright objects.
I hated TPM from the first scene until the last. And Jar Jar Binks was actually the least of my annoyances (can anyone tell me who the hero of the movie is? Seriously anyone?). Couldn't imagine an actual movie studio could make a worse movie, but as it turned out they could and they called it Attack of the Clones.
I can't think of ANY example of a prequel that has worked or been anything other than average.
Season 2 of Fargo is pretty much universally agreed to be GOAT level. If you haven't seen it, you should. Even without watching the first season it's great.
You say they wanted to be safe, but imo making another planet killing gun isn't safe, it's on the absurd.
JJ Abrams with a sci-fi reboot involving super badass planet destroying machines??? I know I wasn't the only person watching that was thinking about Star TREK when the new Death Star was unveiled.
There is nothing safe in creating a plot that people will mock and belittle.
Yeah well to a studio exec safe is looking at a plot that made a bunch of money when it was done in Star Trek and thinking that it would make even more money in Star Wars.
For sure I would've liked it better if the battle between Rey and Ren at the end was centered around, say, trying to get a secret briefcase with an unknown object in it back to Rebel headquarters, but you know that wasn't going to fly with Disney executives. They paid their money and they wanted a better planet killing machine than Star Wars and Star Trek put together. And they got it.
You have to understand that the job most studio execs do is say No to stuff. Pretty much every great thing you've ever seen in a movie got in there despite some big shot saying it would never work. That probably goes all the way back to the Wizard of Oz too. All they do is try to ruin great ideas, and a lot of the time they succeed, unfortunately.
I'm not 100% sure on this, but didn't Palpatine make him Vader right after he killed Windu. In that case, he did defeat Vader. Of course, he didn't have quite as much pain and suffering then.
Nittery aside, if Yoda and Obi-Wan, managed to get him two on one (like Qui-gon and Obi-Wan vs. Maul), they should have been favored. My interpretation is that Episode IV Vader was much stronger than just after Episode III Vader. Just after Episode III, I think he was still defeatable, and that's when they should have tried.
But of course we're all just speculating about fiction here, so it's not like there's a right answer.
When something looks like it will be a big hit (as everyone knew this would be) execs try to give input or "notes" so they can later claim credit for success. Often these "notes" actively make things worse, but they exist to allow some idiot to go "See, I told you it would be a big hit if we made Kylo an emo little bitch and made Rey a superhero!"
Right now, multiple guys are writing articles on how Rey having superpowers without earning them through hard work and apprenticeship proves that Millenials are a bunch of whiny entitled ****s.
Right now, multiple guys are writing articles on how Rey having superpowers without earning them through hard work and apprenticeship proves that Millenials are a bunch of whiny entitled ****s.
How much training did Luke really get though? I mean for sure it was a bit and it was direct from Yoda, but if you base the time he spent on Dagobah against the time Han and Leia were on the run from the Star Destroyers it wasn't that much time at all. Maybe a week, two at the most?
Of course the prequels ruined that too with all the padawan nonsense and the little kids in the Jedi temple, but us fans of the original series saw Luke go from apprentice to Jedi in just a short time and with minimal actual hands-on training.
Look, Harry Potter had to go to hog warts for like seven years. It is COMPLETELY INSULTING to real hardworking wizards that some homeless slut can just walk in and start moving things with her mind right off the bat. TOTALLY UNREALISTIC
But he wasn't a true Jedi. He got his ass kicked by Vader. Don't know how long Han was frozen in carbonite, but that's how long it took Luke to become a real Jedi.
